Ukip

[flecc]

Oh dear politics.
In 10 years time what 2 words will symbolise the death of the Liberal party,some suggestions-
Coalition government
Global warming
Nick Clegg
David Cameron
Wind Farms
Anti nuclear
Pro Europe
Mansion tax
The list is almost endless.

The death of liberalism was a century and more ago, and not due to any one of the above. In a natural world which we'd largely had over many centuries, ordinary life encourages a pragmatic view that suits the middle of the road. But as the world modernised, becoming increasingly complex and unsettling, dissatisfaction encouraged the reactionary views that suit the more left or right extremes.

But experience of the extremes when tried as in Communism and Nazi Germany causes a backing off for the majority, leading to the paradox of both left and right parties meeting nearly at the centre. That squeezes out any chance of a centrist party like the liberals existing but also leads to the electorate being dissatisfied with what choices they have left. The worst of all worlds.
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[timidtom]

To my ex-Marxist* mind there is an inclination towards the dignity of work. For able-bodied but unemployed people I would agree the payment of some form of benefit but expect in return an element of regular work. So, if the JSA (Job Seekers Allowance) is £71 per week, and the minimum wage rate is £6.19 per hour, I would expect the recipients to do ten or eleven hours of work a week. For some this would hopefully lead to a return to full-time employment. Unemployed people have a vast range of skills which at present fade and are lost.
*To each according to his need, from each according to his ability.

 

[Ptarmigan]

and hey, 59 likes on a contentious thread like this isnt bad

When you put it like that , , yes, true !

Perhaps there should be a sub-forum called "Discharging Post" !!

 

[funkylyn]

When you put it like that , , yes, true !

Perhaps there should be a sub-forum called "Discharging Post" !!

68 now.....we must be doing 'something' right lol.......

Lynda

 

[vectra]

Seems to depend on where in the country you live.

 

[flecc]

Seems to depend on where in the country you live.

How very true, and in a larger scale, where in the world one lives and it's influence on one's views

 

[morphix]

To my ex-Marxist* mind there is an inclination towards the dignity of work. For able-bodied but unemployed people I would agree the payment of some form of benefit but expect in return an element of regular work. So, if the JSA (Job Seekers Allowance) is £71 per week, and the minimum wage rate is £6.19 per hour, I would expect the recipients to do ten or eleven hours of work a week. For some this would hopefully lead to a return to full-time employment. Unemployed people have a vast range of skills which at present fade and are lost.
*To each according to his need, from each according to his ability.

This approach really makes sense on so many levels.. not only does it prevent people falling into that poverty trap and help keep them fit and ready for work..but it also enables people to improve their skills and confidence.. if we had linked to community work, it helps reduce costs in local councils etc.. I don't think a one-size fits all solution can work with welfare... we need a flexible approach that takes into account the needs and age of the individual... obviously some people may benefit from receiving benefits for attending further education or work-training schemes.. others may be able to do voluntary work in a sector they aspire to work in etc..

Whatever form it takes, I think people should have to be active and doing something, in order to get welfare. The days of sitting at home watching TV and just living off welfare should be finished. Some people at present see it as a lifestyle choice, do nothing, get paid a bit and just scrape by. Some even do crime to supplement it no doubt. Direct link between anti-social behaviour and criminality, and people with too much time on their hands, not used to working. That's not to say everyone who is out of work and on benefits is bad, but nearly always if you look at these problems, the person has never worked or hasn't worked for a long time. I see it so often in my town. Fix one, and the other problems start to fix themselves.

 

[shemozzle999]

Exposed today that 900,000 unemployed have been moved onto the Work Program i.e. in limbo and they do not show up in the Governments JSA figures - I wonder why they did that!

 

[morphix]

Exposed today that 900,000 unemployed have been moved onto the Work Program i.e. in limbo and they do not show up in the Governments JSA figures - I wonder why they did that!

They do keep massaging the figures and moving things around, rebranding etc, but not really getting down to tackling the core problem. Now we're moving to a "universal credits" approach they say and that's costing a fortune to do.

 

[flecc]

Whatever form it takes, I think people should have to be active and doing something, in order to get welfare. The days of sitting at home watching TV and just living off welfare should be finished. Some people at present see it as a lifestyle choice, do nothing, get paid a bit and just scrape by. Some even do crime to supplement it no doubt.

I'd say the proportion using low level crime to supplement the benefits is very high, from personal knowledge of areas involved. Benefit fraud, shop lifting to order and final stage small scale drug distribution are commonplace methods of earning extra. Using discount shops and a willingness to buy stolen supplies are ways of stretching resulting small incomes.

The welfare state needs to get back to Beveridge's concept, as a safety net providing a temporary stop gap only in most cases.

 

[morphix]

I think changing the present situation and forcing people to do some work or activity for welfare is going to be very challenging and difficult..not only because this culture is so entrenched into British society, but also because of our laws. At present the law states that the government has a commitment to ensure every adult person has a minimum income to live off and a home etc.

So the government can't really ever completely withdraw or withhold welfare from someone who refuses to work or cooperate can they. And even if they did change the law, so they could, that would either just create more poverty or push more people further into crime.

I think the approach the government is looking at is a penalty approach, eg if you don't cooperate you get paid a bit less welfare.. I those who who are idle and see welfare as merely a lifestyle won't be bothered by that or suddenly motivated to take part in work. They will just supplement it in other ways.

I think an approach that could work is restricting how ALL of their benefits can be used, an idea that's being floated around in the media from some politicians. In other words, all welfare is issued on a card that can only be used to buy essential items, effectively barring people from buying cigarettes, alcohol and funding a pub social life etc. Only when people take part in the work programs and/or do training/education would that restriction be lifted and they have the cash in their banks again and freedom.

Or you could just adopt the US approach and wash your hands off these people, and let the charity orgs take care of them, with people queuing in supermarkets for food vouchers etc.

 

[flecc]

Or you could just adopt the US approach and wash your hands off these people, and let the charity orgs take care of them, with people queuing in supermarkets for food vouchers etc.

Possibly not just the USA. Manchester runs a huge food bank to assist the poor and they wondered how it compared with any in Europe. They were staggered to discover that the Paris food bank organisation handles as many tons of food distribution a week as Manchester do in a year!

I'm not as surprised, since in the mid 1960s when living in Paris I saw how harsh French welfare could be. With my French uncle and delivering food to those at the bottom of the stack, I saw just how extreme their poverty was and it was quite a shock to me.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I wish they could get a gang of them to cut back the shrubs an weeds from the cycle paths. We had some lovely ones when I first came to Telford with two two lanes: one for pedestrians and one for cyclists. Now they're barely wide enough to get a pedestrian down. Also the old A5 from Telfordto Shrewsbury had a footpath along the side of it, which cyclists sometimes used, but now it too is completely overgrown in places and the rest is barely possible to cycle on.

As a schoolteacher I can see that very few kids have any plans for the future, so they're striving for nothing, and consequently they can't see the relevance of their school learning, so show little interest in it. It seems that their main objectives are to prevent anything that could help them. There's no incentives any more. Some don't even want to pass their GCSEs, even though they're easy, as if there's some stigma attached to having them. I dispair.

I predict that if something doesn't change, andI doubt that it will until too late, Britain will become like a third world country. In case you think that's an extreme view, I pedicted correctly 10 years ago the financial meltdown that we're now experiencing, which still has a long way to go down yet.

 

[tillson]

I am hoping that with the appointment of a new Govenor of The Bank of England, the economy will start to recover and yield tangible benefits for all of us. This will inevitably lead to a general mood of benevolence amoungst the population, and people will share their new found surplus wealth those who are less fortunate. The country is going to be in far better shape once that Lord Twatty Twatwhistle takes over from Sir Twatty Twatlestone.

And this is my prediction for the future.

 

[shemozzle999]

ditto: some of the overgrown redways in MK d8veh, it is like a going through a revolving car wash.

 

[funkylyn]

I predict that if something doesn't change, andI doubt that it will until too late, Britain will become like a third world country. In case you think that's an extreme view, I pedicted correctly 10 years ago the financial meltdown that we're now experiencing, which still has a long way to go down yet.

Im afraid that I totally agree with you there Dave.

I also remember telling my spanish work colleagues nearly 10 years ago that the property bubble was about to burst big time with horrendous consequences for the country.....they didnt believe me of course.
But I dont think any of us expected it to be quite as bad as it has turned out eventually, and as you say, we havent reached rock bottom yet....

I find the far reaching implications very frightening, in fact, coupled with this extreme weather we have been experiencing I am beginning to wonder if those 'end of the world on 23rd December' predictions may just come true.......but then I remind myself of my 'glass is always half full' philosophy...... and pour another refill......

Lynda

 

[Old_Dave]

I recon that it doesn't matter who's in charge... We are screwed any way, not like the glorious days when Maggie was in power


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[funkylyn]

I recon that it doesn't matter who's in charge... We are screwed any way, not like the glorious days when Maggie was in power


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you wanting this thread to spontaneously combust Dave lolol

Lynda

 

[jazper53]

I am hoping that with the appointment of a new Govenor of The Bank of England, the economy will start to recover and yield tangible benefits for all of us. This will inevitably lead to a general mood of benevolence amoungst the population, and people will share their new found surplus wealth those who are less fortunate. The country is going to be in far better shape once that Lord Twatty Twatwhistle takes over from Sir Twatty Twatlestone.

And this is my prediction for the future.

Sounds like a good bedtime story, but, I think he will need to be a Wizard who can slay those nasty Dragons that controls the banks.

 

[flecc]

I recon that it doesn't matter who's in charge... We are screwed any way

Only for the moment. It's just that old enemy boom and bust again. This bust is a big one and we haven't reached bottom yet, but as sure as day follows night, we'll forget all about this when the next boom is in full flush.

Until the next bust when once again we'll all be predicting disaster (having once again elected a disaster!).