Ukip

[flecc]

I can't agree with any attempt to draw a parrallel with what is happening now and the historical imigration trends of this country which go back hundreds of years. They are two completely different entities and there are no similarities.

I certainly wasn't doing that. I'm speaking of parents and grandparents from other countries, not hundreds of years of history. Too many English people live in a dream world believing that most around them are English going back hundreds of years, the truth being that immigration has been a continuous large scale process making a high proportion recently mongrel. You should also take into account the huge numbers of the English who have left in recent decades. London alone has been losing over 200,000 people every year for around a decade, mostly English, many going to other countries and being replaced in London by immigrants, keeping our population fairly constant but with slight growth. How do you feel about the huge numbers of the English who move abroad to live, is that ok but the other way round not ok?

there is no logical counter argument to the fact that our present imigration free for all is at best, a very bad thing for all concerned or at worst a latent horror.

Do you believe we have some sort of God given right to a better life that other human beings? If not, consider what happens if all borders are open worldwide. What happens is that the process of chasing the best prospects eventually results in a world where we all have equal prospects and living standards and population densities gradually even out. These immigrants from much warmer countries really don't enjoy living in our cold, wet climate and when given an economic chance quickly move back to where they feel more at home. In a similar vein large numbers of Poles who've failed to find consistent work here have been taking advantage of a coach service now provided to take them back home.

And a little footnote to all about those Northern Europeans who have been pouring in. It was that archetypal, cricket loving Englishman John Major who fought hard within Europe to enlarge the EU to include the old Warsaw Pact countries in the union. Many of the mainland EU countries were not very keen on them entering, illustrating once again that care should be taken when apportioning blame for change.
.

 

[timidtom]

Debate and BNP, isnt that an oxymoron ?

I have to confess - it did attract quite a crowd in the town centre ...

Tom

 

[tillson]

I certainly wasn't doing that. I'm speaking of parents and grandparents from other countries, not hundreds of years of history. Too many English people live in a dream world believing that most around them are English going back hundreds of years, the truth being that immigration has been a continuous large scale process making a high proportion recently mongrel.

I think most people are aware of this, but immigration has never been at the level we have seen over recent years. There is no dream, it's a stark reality that the country can't sustain the immigration fuelled population expansion that we are currently experiencing. The country's infrastructure and services are buckling under the strain. A percentage of the immigrants coming into the country are unable to financially support themselves or their families and as a result have to depend on welfare benefits. At the same time, people who have lived in this country all of their lives, people who have worked and paid taxes for 50 years are being told that their retirement plans are now in tatters because there is no money left in the welfare system to pay their pensions. There has to be some correlation here.

You should also take into account the huge numbers of the English who have left in recent decades. London alone has been losing over 200,000 people every year for around a decade, mostly English, many going to other countries and being replaced in London by immigrants, keeping our population fairly constant but with slight growth.

More people have come to live in this country than have left to live in another country. The population has been swelled by immigration.

How do you feel about the huge numbers of the English who move abroad to live, is that ok but the other way round not ok?

It's up to the countries where these people have chosen to reside to decide. If a particular country closed its boarders because they were worried about the detrimental effect of mass immigration, I would accept that with a hint of envy that our own government were not doing the same. The same, if a country imposed a certain level of employability value or personal wealth before allowing entry.

Do you believe we have some sort of God given right to a better life that other human beings?

No. I believe that we should provide help, support and opportunity to other human beings and do it to the best of our abilities. This does not extend to shovelling money into the pockets of the lazy or those who choose not to take advantage of opportunity (native or immigrant). What we certainly should not do is provide a something for nothing free for all.

If not, consider what happens if all borders are open worldwide. What happens is that the process of chasing the best prospects eventually results in a world where we all have equal prospects and living standards and population densities gradually even out.

I think what happens in reality is that people chase what they believe are better prospects and pay gang masters to get them to where they believe the better prospects exist. A percentage then end up being sold into slavery or prostitution. A horrible situation. Much better we put up the No Entry sign, have very secure boarders and remove any false hope.

 

[flecc]

I agree with much of what you say Tillson, we definitely are over-populated and nationally currently have more immigrants than emigrants, though probably not historically. I also agree about the dependency culture that the welfare state has brought about, instead of the safety net it was supposed to be.

But we can't go back in time, to get back to what you would like is not just a matter of puttig up no entry signs. Much as you might not acknowledge it, the problems are historical. Joining the EU brought with it acceptance responsibilities and chinks in our borders, our old empire still brings responsibilities as does the commonwealth. And of course the biggest elephant in the room is globalisation and all of it's implications, controlled not in any way by us but by the USA's insistence on it's existence.

We'd need to get out of Europe to truly get control of our borders, but as I observed elsewhere to Morphix, that would leave us much poorer, since when we joined we abandoned our old trading partners to their disgust and they won't be coming back. Leaving the EU would really upset the USA too, the "special relationship" would soon look very flaky. The best outcome we could hope for out of the EU is a poor man's version of Switzerland, and then you really would see old peoples pensions suffer and state cutbacks on a huge scale. It would of course prompt many immigrants to abandon ship then!

 

[timidtom]

Population Densities per sq.km:
UK = 244
USA = 31
israel = 309
Greece = 81
The Gambia = 149
Somalia = 14
Malta = 1,277

Take your pick; nice and warm in Somalia at this time of year ... any takers? Not much of a problem with immigrants.
Tom

 

[flecc]

Shows we aren't as overcrowded as some imagine. As I remarked earlier, we still have plenty of space but perversely choose to crowd together in confined areas giving a false impression. Not just our problem of course, it's true of countries all over the world.

 

[funkylyn]

Shows we aren't as overcrowded as some imagine. As I remarked earlier, we still have plenty of space but perversely choose to crowd together in confined areas giving a false impression. Not just our problem of course, it's true of countries all over the world.

The whole point flecc is that we may have the SPACE for them.....but we dont have the MONEY to support them all......

Get those long term skivers into work...any work... stop giving them enough money in benefits to allow them to lounge around at the expense of the real hard grafters of this country of which there are still many.....but the percentage is getting lower year by year...it has to stop......SOON

People need to learn that it is their responsibility to provide for their families....NOT the governments.....benefits are there to protect those truly in need, not to support a generation who seem to think the world owes them a living.

We seem to have a generation who expect to be supported from cradle to grave.

Lynda

 

[morphix]

The whole point flecc is that we may have the SPACE for them.....but we dont have the MONEY to support them all......

Get those long term skivers into work...any work... stop giving them enough money in benefits to allow them to lounge around at the expense of the real hard grafters of this country of which there are still many.....but the percentage is getting lower year by year...it has to stop......SOON

People need to learn that it is their responsibility to provide for their families....NOT the governments.....benefits are there to protect those truly in need, not to support a generation who seem to think the world owes them a living.

We seem to have a generation who expect to be supported from cradle to grave.

Lynda

I agree Lynda, we're FAR TOO SOFT and have created this "something for nothing" culture in UK that attracts people from far and wide here. I live above people in my flat who just live one long daily party on welfare, blowing their welfare on drugs and booze. This situation shouldn't be allowed to have continued for so long..and it's directly linked to most of the anti-social behaviour problems communities face. People get locked into this poverty trap created by Labour of just living on welfare and don't see any future for themselves, and the government just leaves them be.

The government says its going to reform benefits and crack down on people who abuse them who can work. For a start, stop calling it BENEFITS and making it so easy to get on them. I think as you say, people should have to WORK or contribute something to their communities to be eligible for social welfare, unless they're genuinely physically or mentally disabled. Even old people retired are working and doing their bit, yet we have lazy sods who think the country owes them something and to whom work is an alien concept.

No wonder our public spending is spiralling out of control. Major crack down required. Some have suggested making social welfare restricted to only allowing buying food and paying utility bills, household items etc, I think that's a good idea, or at least preventing it being used to buy alcohol, cigs and drugs by putting the money on a special card which only certain outlets will accept.

Then there's well-off families who claim working tax credits/child tax credits who don't really need them. That needs to be means tested. Some rich retired people with private pensions or considerable wealth even get generous state pensions they don't really need.

If I was in charge, I'd shave billions off that welfare bill and put a LOT of people into productive community work or work training, give them the option of that or paid national service. I think many would soon find a regular paying job or being self-employed a more attractive proposition.

Another thing too.. I read a report suggesting most of the cost on NHS A&E emergencies and hospital services is alcohol or cigarette related. Why not make these people pay for their treatment? Especially binge drinkers and the youngsters! They'd wouldn't do it if they faced a £150 A&E bill every time or a bigger bill for surgery ;-)

The next thing that needs tackling too is this corporate and rich people tax-avoidance scams,right under the governments nose. Companies like Amazon, Tesco, Starbucks, eBay etc. registering off-shore companies to avoid UK VAT and even corporation tax. Off-shore companies and trust funds for wealthy individuals who minimise their tax and avoid paying their fair share, yet enjoy all the benefits of the UK economy. I can't understand how or why the gov has turned a blind eye to these activities for so long and doesn't crack down on them.

Ok rant over!

 

[timidtom]

To my mind we have the luxury of choice - 'they' don't. We can, of course, pull up the drawbridge and plug our ears.
We can accept whoever lands on our beaches. Many will tackle a dangerous and difficult journey with great courage.
We can accept the 'deserving' and throw back the 'undeserving' - good Victorian practice.
Or we can look for ways of helping people enjoy their own countries - direct help with health and education and trade. Of course it will cost - letting people starve is the cheap option. J & I put our money where our hearts are. We fund education and supply medical materials to a couple of West African villages - and every flight out to The Gambia has its quota of similar people doing the same.
The town we live in here in England (Land of the free!) grew rich on the by-products of the slave trade. Not by dealing in slaves but by manufacturing trading goods, by supplying copper sheeting to protect the hulls of the slave-traders ships from attacks by sea worms. We traded cotton - we didn't get our hands soiled with the blood of slaves of course. Not directly. I doubt if there was a family in the county that didn't benefit in some way. I can't not help.
Rant on hold.
Tom

 

[morphix]

To my mind we have the luxury of choice - 'they' don't. We can, of course, pull up the drawbridge and plug our ears.
We can accept whoever lands on our beaches. Many will tackle a dangerous and difficult journey with great courage.
We can accept the 'deserving' and throw back the 'undeserving' - good Victorian practice.
Or we can look for ways of helping people enjoy their own countries - direct help with health and education and trade. Of course it will cost - letting people starve is the cheap option. J & I put our money where our hearts are. We fund education and supply medical materials to a couple of West African villages - and every flight out to The Gambia has its quota of similar people doing the same.
The town we live in here in England (Land of the free!) grew rich on the by-products of the slave trade. Not by dealing in slaves but by manufacturing trading goods, by supplying copper sheeting to protect the hulls of the slave-traders ships from attacks by sea worms. We traded cotton - we didn't get our hands soiled with the blood of slaves of course. Not directly. I doubt if there was a family in the county that didn't benefit in some way. I can't not help.
Rant on hold.
Tom

I agree Tom.. I don't think the UK can, or is even in a position to, just help everyone who come from poor countries. I sympathise with their plight, but we have to think of the needs and interest of our own country and people too. There has to be clear limits and only very exceptional cases should be granted asylum. Most of these people pass across several safe countries to get to UK and we have no legal obligation under international law to even accept them.

I agree with your comment that perhaps we'd be better off using these massive "foreign development aid" contributions we make, billions every year... to directly assist these very poor countries in very practical projects that help support the British economy and growth in these poor countries so they can support themselves rather rely on handouts or just abandon their countries. The British Commonwealth is a huge opportunity I think, for the UK and UK industry to work with poor parts of the world, and invest in them. Projects like the solar power program in north Africa etc. Obviously there are challenges some of these parts of the world are very war torn and unstable politically, but the UK has the resources to move people around the commonwealth and it could be worked out as the commonwealth has good close working relations. Like a modern day empire ;-)

America has successfully created it's global corporate empire by investing and expanding all over the world.

NOTE: There is a project (kiva.org) someone setup on the web which aims to directly assist the poorest people in the world who need money to improve their lives and work. It's a great idea, as the loans are very low interest and flexible, so people can pay them back over a longer period and they have regional people on the ground to assess people and support them. It has transformed many lives and allowed people to establish successful businesses or get training to find jobs etc. Some individuals in UK and in rich countries (and companies) form "lending consortiums" to pool their money and choose to focus on specific countries, or industry areas etc. This is more effective than governments just giving millions to dodgy governments that doesn't really benefit poor people.

 

[flecc]

The whole point flecc is that we may have the SPACE for them.....but we dont have the MONEY to support them all......

Get those long term skivers into work...any work... stop giving them enough money in benefits to allow them to lounge around at the expense of the real hard grafters of this country of which there are still many.....but the percentage is getting lower year by year...it has to stop......SOON

People need to learn that it is their responsibility to provide for their families....NOT the governments.....benefits are there to protect those truly in need, not to support a generation who seem to think the world owes them a living.

We seem to have a generation who expect to be supported from cradle to grave.

Lynda

No need to comment on this for me Lynda, I'd already been critical of our dependency culture in this post above. But that's not an immigrant issue to any meaningful extent, much more one of our own citizens who don't want to work and abuse the various welfare state services. My comment about having enough space was with regard to overcrowding caused by congregation.

 

[funkylyn]

Its OK flecc I know your views about our 'dependancy culture', that bit wasnt aimed at you, just the comment about space, it doesnt matter whether there are population density areas or not, we still know that we have plenty space .....we just have to have more people in that space who want to work, or are made to work, thats all ...as Im sure you agree

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

Oh dear politics.
In 10 years time what 2 words will symbolise the death of the Liberal party,some suggestions-
Coalition government
Global warming
Nick Clegg
David Cameron
Wind Farms
Anti nuclear
Pro Europe
Mansion tax
The list is almost endless.

 

[Jimod]

Me and the wife.

Having had enough of W.London we emigrated in a northerly direction

You got in just in time since we're closing the border in 2014.







OK that was humour in case anyone is offended.

 

[Old_Dave]

Lol..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ptarmigan]

You got in just in time since we're closing the border in 2014.
OK that was humour in case anyone is offended.

Good one Jim,

I can trace my paternal ancestors back to English 4g-grandfather/3g-grandmother (I think 4g-gm was Welsh! heck!!)
[My maternal ancestors were border reivers, so we dont know if they were hung for stealing cows from the English or sheep from the Scots, so we dont talk about them !! ]
I was born in the far north, would have been Scottish except some fool called Hadrian built a wall in the wrong place !

But I was kidnapped and brung south by an 'English' lass of Irish great-great parentage, so there is now no hope for our offspring LOL!
,,,,
I had thought that the first post in the thread was said tongue-in-cheek in response to various news stories,
but then it all got too serious for me.
I thort that the Charging Post was "A place to recharge your batteries,"
so I expected a lot more humour (wicked or otherwise) in the thread,
seems to me that the posts have attracted a lot fewer "likes" than at other times in other places !

There is so much stress in normal life,
shame that it has to be imported (to so little effect) in the Charging Post

 

[Ptarmigan]

Oh dear politics.
Mansion tax

The list is almost endless.

and very naughty of you !

Mansion Tax to me is typical of their hypocricy,
a few years ago they were bleating on about the iniquitous Council Tax being tied to property value with no relation to ability to pay (little old widow still living alone in the family home) and thence proposing a local income tax as the fair answer.
then along comes Cable ( a closet left-wing, left of Trotsky even!) and they all change on a populist air

How many years is it since you last heard them on about a local income tax to abolish Council Tax (or Rates as it then was) ??

 

[funkylyn]

I thort that the Charging Post was "A place to recharge your batteries,"
so I expected a lot more humour (wicked or otherwise) in the thread,
seems to me that the posts have attracted a lot fewer "likes" than at other times in other places !

There is so much stress in normal life,
shame that it has to be imported (to so little effect) in the Charging Post

The charging post is where we can talk about things not related to electric bikes and make new friends lol
I know a lot of people dont like or agree with discussing politics or religion in public....I was not brought up as one of them and was always encouraged to debate, as politely as possible , anything that I found interesting, to me its education, I enjoy listening to other peoples points of view, and Im very laid back, I dont get upset easily.....which helps !

So personally I dont find this thread stressful at all, and any who do can choose not to read it or join in.

I find it helps reduce stress levels to be able to let off steam in this way occasionally.....and hey, 59 likes on a contentious thread like this isnt bad

Lynda

 

[jazper53]

I have noticed that BBC have done a poll on the "in or out" EU question, and 55% are in favour of out. Tories would like to make a deal with UKIP promising a referendum. but not on the" in or out" question before the end of parliament, as long as UKIP does not compete against Tory maginal seats, typical anti-democratic double dealing by a clueless leadership we presently have in this country

 

[flecc]

I know a lot of people dont like or agree with discussing politics or religion in public....I was not brought up as one of them and was always encouraged to debate, as politely as possible , anything that I found interesting, to me its education, I enjoy listening to other peoples points of view, and Im very laid back, I dont get upset easily.....which helps !

So personally I dont find this thread stressful at all, and any who do can choose not to read it or join in.

Lynda

Right on the nail Lynda! The reason this sort of discussion doesn't stress me is that I'm not trying to change anyone's point of view, or even wanting to. I just like to make sure that everything is being taken in to account with some reminders, since all too often there's just selectivity of only the things that suit a particular bias.

At my age it doesn't matter which way politics goes, the long term consequences won't involve me.