Two wheel drive electric bike

[trex]

You have a long way to go before you need to know about registering a bike you build yourself.
if you haven't got an e-bike, then start by trying some. It's difficult to discuss when you don't have much experience. Do this before you try to build a better mousetrap - you see the analogy.
Your local Halfords may have their Crossfire-E on demo. That's a good buy, a self build with similar specs will cost about the same.

 

[Deleted member 17881]

You have a long way to go before you need to know about registering a bike you build yourself.
if you haven't got an e-bike, then start by trying some. It's difficult to discuss when you don't have much experience. Do this before you try to build a better mousetrap - you see the analogy.
Your local Halfords may have their Crossfire-E on demo. That's a good buy, a self build with similar specs will cost about the same.

I gather there are a lot of key things to know about e-bikes, registering to legally drive a bike you build, licence to drive, added speed for learning ways to drive better, handling and balance and grip is better and more accurate when in comparison to bikes that have good balance, less speed, though still are quick and grip and handling is precise, just not as fine as e-Bikes.

I did ask my local Halfords store for e-bikes or electric bikes, just that the local store only sells mountain and road bikes. The bigger store whilst there buying 2015 helmet with light emitting diodes for £25,00, decent air vents still does not have any electric bikes to test on a drive.

What do you mean when you say this please, "Do this before you try to build a better mousetrap - you see the analogy."?

Thanks for giving a good electric bike to look at, the Crossfire-E, on the video it tells you that the bike does 15.5mph, legal speed limit for motors that are 250Watts, with 30 to 50 mile range, that is plenty of riding to do, eight gears is alright, one extra gear than mine.

What do you think of making a e-bike yourself that is similar to Crossfire-E? Although, it is pricey at £799.99.

Have to work out, though in case of batteries, building a cheap battery when you discharge battery cells, from old laptop battery, you are able to spot weld with metal the 50 or more battery cells in rows of positive and negative together to save a fair amount of money and have a longer lasting and more powerful battery. Have check that you get better value for money when building your own e-bike, this is correct to with making your own light emitting diodes.

 

[trex]

Don't worry about legal aspects for the time being. 99% of e-bikes you find in the shops are legal (look carefully, you'll find an EN15194 sticker on all of them). Buy one second hand off ebay or gumtree if money is tight. When you find one that you like, post a link here before you part with your cash, we'll tell you what's wrong with it.

 

[Deleted member 17881]

Don't worry about legal aspects for the time being. 99% of e-bikes you find in the shops are legal (look carefully, you'll find an EN15194 sticker on all of them). Buy one second hand off ebay or gumtree if money is tight. When you find one that you like, post a link here before you part with your cash, we'll tell you what's wrong with it.

Well, I think by making a electric bike I can get a better electric bike for same money as buying a electric bike, this saves a lot of time, just that it maybe not as good. How do you work this out please, when you buy parts like make own battery and buy motor to see that it is better than factory made electric bike for same money?

I see the EN15194 on legal page about electric bikes, meaning 250 watts allows speed up to 15mph. Thanks for giving a good place to look on eBay for second hand e-bikes. I am just looking at electric bikes, what is good, how to make electric bikes and laws to drive safely. I do not want to purchase as have no need to do 30 or 40 miles in a day via bike. Biking there takes more time than bus or public transport to Cardiff, probably 1 hour 30 minutes more, bus and public train is a lot cheaper and gets there in 1 hour or less. I can still drive safely and get there on time to Cardiff in probably two hours or less using my bike.

 

[trex]

you should not make your own batteries, they are dangerous if not made correctly. You need a spot welding machine, PVC tubing, heat shrink machine, kapton tapes, silicon wires, high power soldering iron, solder, flux, cell holders, metal strips and load tester to make a safe battery. You also need to buy a suitable BMS and a charger besides recovered laptop lithium cells.
Motor kits are plenty and cheap on ebay.There is no way you can save money on a cheap 8-Fun kit by buying separate components and put the kit together yourself.
There are plenty of cheap e-bikes on the market, sold at prices that make home build inefficient: Halfords Coyote, Tesco Hopper etc. After you know what you ideally want (and that's likely expensive, the kind of bikes that cost more than £1,000), then build your own to save some cash. You won't save much more than £200 on a £1,000 bike. Even then, choose a well proven plug and play kit for your first conversion.

 

[KirstinS]

I have made quite a few batteries with recoveredb laptop cells

I wanted to learn more than anything. Practically they are SO time consuming to recover cells, test cells and build packs....... For pretty poor performance and, crucial for me, poor longevity.

I would not bother , I gave up a while back.

8 fun?was my first kit years ago. I think the market has changed allot. Not sure they are best value for money. And their customer service/guarantees have been a bit hit and miss on this forum

 

[D8ve]

You need to understand legal bikes first. So buy a readymade.
There are a lot of experts here and far more on endless sphere. As well as some kranks.
They have built high power electric motorcycles. And registered them too.
That is what a twin engine counts as . It is legally the same as a motor cycle, so you need lights, brakes and wheels that meet the motorcycle standard.
Making a better bike is hard. I think mine is special with good range and performance. However it is rubbishy off road.
Think about what you want to achieve, work out ALL the steps nessisary to get their. Show us a plan.
All you have said upto now is I want to make a better bike! The question is how. Faster and it's a motor cycle. More efficient and my bike will be hard to beat.
Better off road and there are some seriously good bikes already made. You need to know about off reading a lot to improve them.
Cheaper, well my 16 ah battery cost about £120. But I need my ONC in electronic Eng to be safe with the design.
It's hard to improve something this mature with legal restrictions on it.

 

[Deleted member 17881]

you should not make your own batteries, they are dangerous if not made correctly. You need a spot welding machine, PVC tubing, heat shrink machine, kapton tapes, silicon wires, high power soldering iron, solder, flux, cell holders, metal strips and load tester to make a safe battery. You also need to buy a suitable BMS and a charger besides recovered laptop lithium cells.
Motor kits are plenty and cheap on ebay.There is no way you can save money on a cheap 8-Fun kit by buying separate components and put the kit together yourself.
There are plenty of cheap e-bikes on the market, sold at prices that make home build inefficient: Halfords Coyote, Tesco Hopper etc. After you know what you ideally want (and that's likely expensive, the kind of bikes that cost more than £1,000), then build your own to save some cash. You won't save much more than £200 on a £1,000 bike. Even then, choose a well proven plug and play kit for your first conversion.

Time to write is 22:12pm, finish at 23:39pm. Means, 37 minutes to write this reply on date, 21st Thursday, 07 July, 2016 pm.

Thanks very much for giving battery advice on not make own batteries because of issues as lack of knowledge in comparison to companies that spend years and lots of money on tests to make sure each battery is safe.

Having said that big companies due to knowledge that allows batteries to wire together correctly to give the right electric that transfers each cells power together to be safe to use. Then, I have seen people on YouTube that make battery cells together in positive and negative rows with spot welder, cell chargers, battery management system, and heat shrink wrap to encase all the batteries together with years of experience as a engineer that the final battery is safe to use.

I read in your reply, many components that you give names for that more accurately get you search results for the right product. I am searching for when I look at the components using other names, products that are similar or a little bit different, yet still are correct. For example: I come across in a video, a material called heat shrink wrap, the link to my Google search is here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=heat shrink wrap&oq=heat shrink wrap&rlz=1C1EJFA_enGB664GB664&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5037j0j7. Heat shrink wrap I see in use is for to wrap up the battery pack to take heat for the battery pack to be cool and for the cells in the battery case to holder together better.

Now, the key difference with Kapton tape, I search for on Google, in your usage I think is for wrapping up battery packs. Kapton tape as name tells you comes in the tape form, this method of tape uses more strips to cover it all, and the strength of tape is less I find than a whole material like heat shrink wrap.

Thanks for all the other information such as, "spot welding machine, PVC tubing, heat shrink machine, kapton tapes, silicon wires, high power soldering iron, solder, flux, cell holders, metal strips and load tester".

With regards to saving £200, on a £1000 bike, that is still decent amount of money to save. A conversion kit is good as the price is a lot cheaper, can be had for £300 for 25 watt with battery and charger online, saving £400 from a £700 e-bike.

I have important work to do in following days and months, this means I am not returning, in the coming year to this forum. Although, I do value everybody's help to make e-biking from a designer or rider view a lot more enjoyable and educational to help drivers learn better how e-bikes work, or why certain e-bikes are better than others.

I have already given e-bikes enough of my time for research to find out how to make battery, own motor or to buy e-bike conversion kits and to purchase e-bikes instead. I think I am happy to say thanks for allowing myself to learn with everyone who gave effort in to helping myself learn more about e-bike laws, which e-bike to buy and how to make your own e-bikes.

Enjoy your time today, make tomorrow even happier, live well in your life with your loving family and friends, and have a good future, where you do better in your life to give the world good and love.

 

[trex]

Now, the key difference with Kapton tape, I search for on Google, in your usage I think is for wrapping up battery packs. Kapton tape as name tells you comes in the tape form, this method of tape uses more strips to cover it all, and the strength of tape is less I find than a whole material like heat shrink wrap.

in battery packs, kapton tape is used to cover soldering spots and to tape conductors to the heat shrink tubing.

 

[trex]

With regards to saving £200, on a £1000 bike, that is still decent amount of money to save. A conversion kit is good as the price is a lot cheaper, can be had for £300 for 25 watt with battery and charger online, saving £400 from a £700 e-bike.

currently, the cheapest kit costs about £450
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-Electric-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-36v-13amp-Lithium-Battery-Front-Rear-Wheel-/111887599062
Add a new bike, you'll get to about £700.
You can get a brand new woosh Sirocco CDL or Santana CDL for £799.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?santana-cdl
You can't build a similar bike for less than £799.

 

[Deleted member 17881]

currently, the cheapest kit costs about £450
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-Electric-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-36v-13amp-Lithium-Battery-Front-Rear-Wheel-/111887599062
Add a new bike, you'll get to about £700.
You can get a brand new woosh Sirocco CDL or Santana CDL for £799.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?santana-cdl
You can't build a similar bike for less than £799.

Thanks for your help to say you save when buying new bike with £450 kit on ebay for 500 watt, meaning need for insurance, tax disc, number plate and MOT certificate. Thanks for your help about kapton tape that is tape on conductors, this is material such as metal that allows electric to travel from battery to wires to work.

I am thankful for all your help and as busy with work want to say thanks for help to explain key components like saving decent money when buying e-bike kits, getting the right names for components such as kapton tape, load test etc and to help show ways to make battery safer or better to buy own battery and all your help. I will not be returning, just want to say to all to have a good life you enjoy with your loving family and friends for you to make this nice, world a lot more better.

 

[Deleted member 17881]

You need to understand legal bikes first. So buy a readymade.
There are a lot of experts here and far more on endless sphere. As well as some kranks.
They have built high power electric motorcycles. And registered them too.
That is what a twin engine counts as . It is legally the same as a motor cycle, so you need lights, brakes and wheels that meet the motorcycle standard.
Making a better bike is hard. I think mine is special with good range and performance. However it is rubbishy off road.
Think about what you want to achieve, work out ALL the steps nessisary to get their. Show us a plan.
All you have said upto now is I want to make a better bike! The question is how. Faster and it's a motor cycle. More efficient and my bike will be hard to beat.
Better off road and there are some seriously good bikes already made. You need to know about off reading a lot to improve them.
Cheaper, well my 16 ah battery cost about £120. But I need my ONC in electronic Eng to be safe with the design.
It's hard to improve something this mature with legal restrictions on it.

Thanks for your help as from the resources I have on e-bike kits, e-bike battery, e-bike motors and other important things like joining two tyres together and laws for e-bikes. I need to organise it all like you say to have a plan will help myself in the future if I want to add anything such as light emitting diodes via rechargeable battery or upgrade to a e-bike, a plan help get the most out of the helpful information such as e-bike laws, two motor law that turns bike into motor cycle standard meaning brakes, wheels, have to be up to motor cycle standard. In addition, which e-bikes are better, how to make safe battery or ways to join two tyres as given on this forum.

You good factors to consider, for example: Will e-bike be as good as e-bike as you are able to buy for same money or how much saving is there, does the bike work together with battery to give good miles.

As I have work to do, thanks for all your help. Enjoy your life and have a good future.

 

[motomech]

This thread seems to have drifted off topic.
Back to the 2WD idea, I built a low-powered 2WD 6 years ago and it has, of course, gone thru a number of revisions. I posted a fairly recent build thread here;
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/love-my-cuties.23393/
The pros and cons of 2WD vs. 1 larger motor has been hashed over ad infinitum, but I would like to point out a couple of advantages that have been over-looked.
One is based on the premise that it is easier to have a PAS that "feels good" when the overall system power level is low, say sub 800 Watts. At or below this level, a simple square-wave 3-speed limiting controller works fine. When the bike's speed range is limited, say up to 20 MPH, there are no large gaps between speed limit settings and there is no "lurching to speed" as the PAS is engaged. This is very beneficial to me as I have had some issues intergrating a sine-wave 5-"torque level" controller with the odd Voltage of my Lipo packs.
So, my rear system is biased toward pedal-assist, but there are times I wish for more acceleration and speed, like crossing a busy street or if I am in a hurry and am not concearned w/ getting some exersize. That is when the frt. system comes in.
And the second advantage may surprise some, but in the case of my donor bike, a low-power 2WD eases the build. My Rocky Mountain has rear drop-outs that can only be described as "wispy" and with my Q100CST, I can use "off the shelf", genaric torque arms. With a larger motor, I would have had to fab. a custom torque arm specific to the bike. This alone over-shadows any extra complication of an extra battery, throttle, etc.
So, in a sense, I get two Ebikes in one, a pedal assist and a faster, more powerful bike that will hit 26 mph.
Although I had combined the two systems to one throttle is the past, what really makes this set-up work so well is having two throttles and PAS. 90% of the time I am using the rear system with the PAS and add extra frt, motor power with the throttle.
Very easy and natural feeling.

 

[KirstinS]

This thread seems to have drifted off topic.
Back to the 2WD idea, I built a low-powered 2WD 6 years ago and it has, of course, gone thru a number of revisions. I posted a fairly recent build thread here;
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/love-my-cuties.23393/
The pros and cons of 2WD vs. 1 larger motor has been hashed over ad infinitum, but I would like to point out a couple of advantages that have been over-looked.
One is based on the premise that it is easier to have a PAS that "feels good" when the overall system power level is low, say sub 800 Watts. At or below this level, a simple square-wave 3-speed limiting controller works fine. When the bike's speed range is limited, say up to 20 MPH, there are no large gaps between speed limit settings and there is no "lurching to speed" as the PAS is engaged. This is very beneficial to me as I have had some issues intergrating a sine-wave 5-"torque level" controller with the odd Voltage of my Lipo packs.
So, my rear system is biased toward pedal-assist, but there are times I wish for more acceleration and speed, like crossing a busy street or if I am in a hurry and am not concearned w/ getting some exersize. That is when the frt. system comes in.
And the second advantage may surprise some, but in the case of my donor bike, a low-power 2WD eases the build. My Rocky Mountain has rear drop-outs that can only be described as "wispy" and with my Q100CST, I can use "off the shelf", genaric torque arms. With a larger motor, I would have had to fab. a custom torque arm specific to the bike. This alone over-shadows any extra complication of an extra battery, throttle, etc.
So, in a sense, I get two Ebikes in one, a pedal assist and a faster, more powerful bike that will hit 26 mph.
Although I had combined the two systems to one throttle is the past, what really makes this set-up work so well is having two throttles and PAS. 90% of the time I am using the rear system with the PAS and add extra frt, motor power with the throttle.
Very easy and natural feeling.

Interesting point of view I've not seen explained here before.

Out of interest, in your view, would the same effect be achieved by having one motor (let's say 36v 250w) and one battery of 36v BUT also having a booster pack (say 11.1v) that is switched in went you want that boost

A 36v system at 48v gives a big boost generally

I have run /overvolted quite a few motors over the years. The 250w 36v BPM will happily run at 14s ( 50v) for many many miles - controllers vary at that level of abuse.

 

[anotherkiwi]

What controller will switch between 36 and 48 V on the fly?

 

[motomech]

Raising the Voltage, of course, increases speed, but has little effect on acceleration and switching high Voltages can be.....complicated.
I think a more elegant, versatile, single motor system might be comprised of the new Q128 and the new 500 Watt "torque imitation" controller from BMS Battery.

 

[KirstinS]

What controller will switch between 36 and 48 V on the fly?

Im not sure. I just overvolt 36v ones - though success or failure very dependant on caps used in the controller

 

[Ruadh495]

Presumably twin motors would be legal if limited (in the controller?) to 125W each? And marked as such, of course. My understanding is that the motor doesn't really set the wattage, though there must be a limit to how much you can put through a nominally 250W motor before the magic smoke gets out. No problem feeding it less.

Not that I think there's any advantage in two motors, but it could be done.

 

[flecc]

Presumably twin motors would be legal if limited (in the controller?) to 125W each? And marked as such, of course. My understanding is that the motor doesn't really set the wattage, though there must be a limit to how much you can put through a nominally 250W motor before the magic smoke gets out. No problem feeding it less.

Not that I think there's any advantage in two motors, but it could be done.

Yes, legal two motor ebikes have existed in various forms previously. The SRAM Sparc e-bike hub motor actually contained two motors and a Carrera with that Sparc motor became Halford's first e-bike model.

Here's the innards:

.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Presumably twin motors would be legal if limited (in the controller?) to 125W each? And marked as such, of course. My understanding is that the motor doesn't really set the wattage, though there must be a limit to how much you can put through a nominally 250W motor before the magic smoke gets out. No problem feeding it less.

Not that I think there's any advantage in two motors, but it could be done.

Not in EN 15194, it is ONE motor. In flecs example when the motor is closed it is considered as one motor with one drive shaft.

This has probably not been tested in law but the text is pretty clear that they only allow one motor.