Two-tier justice

[oldtom]

The young woman, fine student hoping to become a surgeon one day, who viciously attacked her boyfriend with a knife while she was under the influence of drink and/or drugs has illustrated once again how skewed our judicial system is.

Had this woman not been the product of a well-to-do family and perhaps hadn't done so well at school to gain a university place, she would almost certainly have gone to prison, such was the level of violence she used in attacking her boyfriend.

Judge Ian Pringle, in his wisdom, made up all sorts of weak excuses for subjecting her to only a suspended sentence when handing down his judgement. Now, I thought there was supposed to be zero tolerance these days of knife crime but perhaps his Lordship reckons that's ok now and it's acid attacks we need to get serious about?

This is simply one more in a string of bizarre legal judgements based on factors other than those germane to the case. It is about class and it is about position in society and about protection of the well-to-do, so there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that British justice is selectively applied by people just like Ian Pringle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41389520

Tom

 

[flecc]

The young woman, fine student hoping to become a surgeon one day, who viciously attacked her boyfriend with a knife while she was under the influence of drink and/or drugs has illustrated once again how skewed our judicial system is.

Had this woman not been the product of a well-to-do family and perhaps hadn't done so well at school to gain a university place, she would almost certainly have gone to prison, such was the level of violence she used in attacking her boyfriend.

Judge Ian Pringle, in his wisdom, made up all sorts of weak excuses for subjecting her to only a suspended sentence when handing down his judgement. Now, I thought there was supposed to be zero tolerance these days of knife crime but perhaps his Lordship reckons that's ok now and it's acid attacks we need to get serious about?

This is simply one more in a string of bizarre legal judgements based on factors other than those germane to the case. It is about class and it is about position in society and about protection of the well-to-do, so there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that British justice is selectively applied by people just like Ian Pringle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41389520

Tom

But there's also blatant sexism in favour of women within the whole justice system, so that may have been the cause here. One only has to watch the police programs on TV to see it in action, and case outcomes as here are commonly very unfairly much softer on women.

In one case that particularly annoyed me, a married woman was for a very long time running a large scale benefits scam using numerous false identities. She was employing her relatives, neighbours, friends and even her husband as the stooges to collect the money regularly in return for a percentage.

She got a small community order, her husband got two years custodial for his very minor role. Clearly the judge must have thought the husband should have prevented her doing what she did, but what age was he living in, thinking husbands can control their wives in that manner? Women these days make their own minds up, and that's how it should be.

And of course women regularly escape prison and even adequate community orders, simply because they have children who might otherwise have to be taken into care.

That needs to change and it's quite simple how, treat it like we do driving without a licence offences. Then any driving ban imposed takes effect at any future time the offender gets a licence, it commencing with the ban period.

Women with children should be sentenced on the same basis, sentenced to the just period of prison for the offence, to be served at such time as any children reached a suitable age, be that 18 years for example.
.

 

[Danidl]

The young woman, fine student hoping to become a surgeon one day, who viciously attacked her boyfriend with a knife while she was under the influence of drink and/or drugs has illustrated once again how skewed our judicial system is.

Had this woman not been the product of a well-to-do family and perhaps hadn't done so well at school to gain a university place, she would almost certainly have gone to prison, such was the level of violence she used in attacking her boyfriend.

Judge Ian Pringle, in his wisdom, made up all sorts of weak excuses for subjecting her to only a suspended sentence when handing down his judgement. Now, I thought there was supposed to be zero tolerance these days of knife crime but perhaps his Lordship reckons that's ok now and it's acid attacks we need to get serious about?

This is simply one more in a string of bizarre legal judgements based on factors other than those germane to the case. It is about class and it is about position in society and about protection of the well-to-do, so there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that British justice is selectively applied by people just like Ian Pringle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41389520

Tom

Have read this and the accompanying BBC report. A number of thoughts come to mind first the flippant if her desire is to be a surgeon she is getting a head start. But more a good barrister is important, in getting points across... Which our mutual friend on the fixie did not have.
If drugs and alcohol were admitted factors she should have been required to attend rehab and it is on that basis of that that the university should suspend her. That the university would even consider sending her down under their disciplinary procedures for an offense after she has been dealt with by a superior court fly's against all norms of justice and double jeopardy.
Now the points that are concerning OT and flecc. Is it class or sex which limited the punishment? The answer is both. Women have traditionally been afforded more lenient treatment and punishment including commutation of death sentences because they were likely to be pregnant. Women are not considered as a threat to the establishment ( mind you those who think so have not met my sister's or my wife!) Upper class or professional class people are more likely to be more leniently treated, maybe because they can afford competent lawyers.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The young woman, fine student hoping to become a surgeon one day, who viciously attacked her boyfriend with a knife while she was under the influence of drink and/or drugs has illustrated once again how skewed our judicial system is.

Had this woman not been the product of a well-to-do family and perhaps hadn't done so well at school to gain a university place, she would almost certainly have gone to prison, such was the level of violence she used in attacking her boyfriend.

Judge Ian Pringle, in his wisdom, made up all sorts of weak excuses for subjecting her to only a suspended sentence when handing down his judgement. Now, I thought there was supposed to be zero tolerance these days of knife crime but perhaps his Lordship reckons that's ok now and it's acid attacks we need to get serious about?

This is simply one more in a string of bizarre legal judgements based on factors other than those germane to the case. It is about class and it is about position in society and about protection of the well-to-do, so there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that British justice is selectively applied by people just like Ian Pringle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41389520

Tom

Jeez, you don't half have a chip on your shoulder!

The problem with these stories is that you only see the facts that the press carefully selected to make their story. That applies to Flecc's case too.

 

[mike killay]

I can only fume quietly at this injustice.
I do hope that Judge Pringle gets hauled over the coals.

 

[Wander]

Had this woman not been the product of a well-to-do family ......

It is about class and it is about position in society and about protection of the well-to-do, ......

Not the case according to a caller on LBC this morning who said his daughter, very similar case, on drugs, GBH'd her boyfriend, heard by same judge & also got a suspended sentence.

Caller described themselves as very working class.

 

[flecc]

Not the case according to a caller on LBC this morning who said his daughter, very similar case, on drugs, GBH'd her boyfriend, heard by same judge & also got a suspended sentence.

Caller described themselves as very working class.

Supports my contention of sexism being rife in the courts.
.

 

[flecc]

That applies to Flecc's case too.

No it doesn't, because in this case you aren't in full possession of the facts.

It was made clear in court that the woman who created and ran the scheme was by far the most guilty, but she had young children and escaped the imprisonment so clearly due and received a light community order instead. The father of the children didn't get that consideration and got the two years custodial.

So much for equality and justice, why should it be ok for the children to lose their father but wrong to lose their mother? Justice would have seen the father getting a community order for his minor part and left with the children, while the mother got the punishment she deserved.

It seems enlightenment has limitations, and it was this that angered me.
.

 

[oldtom]

Not the case according to a caller on LBC this morning who said his daughter, very similar case, on drugs, GBH'd her boyfriend, heard by same judge & also got a suspended sentence.

Caller described themselves as very working class.

I think post #2 from 'flecc' covers that 'Wander' and while I'm sure of the case that 'posh' folk and those with connections in high places frequently (though not always) receive better outcomes under our judicial system, I accept 'flecc's' point that there exists also some positive sexist discrimination in sentencing for the reasons stated.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Jeez, you don't half have a chip on your shoulder!

So, if it had been some young madam from a sink estate in one of our large cities who had appeared in the dock, replete with a bunch of piercings and tattoos on display, you believe the sentence handed down would have been the same?

That aside, how does observing and commenting on an example of the blatant iniquities within the British judicial system relate to 'having a chip on one's shoulder'?

Tom

 

[Deleted member 4366]

So, if it had been some young madam from a sink estate in one of our large cities who had appeared in the dock, replete with a bunch of piercings and tattoos on display, you believe the sentence handed down would have been the same?

I hope not. I would expect that anybody who appears in front of judge at least might make an attempt to present themselves as a respectful citizen if they were truly sorry for their crime.

If I were the judge, I think I'd send someone like that for psychiatric assessment before passing judgement. Clearly, she must have problems to inflict upon herself that sort of self-harm.

 

[oldtom]

If I were the judge, I think I'd send someone like that for psychiatric assessment before passing judgement. Clearly, she must have problems to inflict upon herself that sort of self-harm.

Well, I for one am pleased you are not a judge with such critical opinions of someone who chooses to dress and appear in a particular kind of way.

Clearly, you immediately stereotype people on account of the way they appear - have you never heard the expression, 'You can't judge a book by its cover'?

Your attitude is exactly the reason why in other parts of the world, the lady with the scales and sword is also blindfolded. Justice has to be impartial and anyone appearing before you in your judge fantasy would be immediately disadvantaged........by a man who dresses up in black robes and wears a wig for no good reason!

Tom

 

[mike killay]

Well, I for one am pleased you are not a judge with such critical opinions of someone who chooses to dress and appear in a particular kind of way.

Clearly, you immediately stereotype people on account of the way they appear - have you never heard the expression, 'You can't judge a book by its cover'?



Tom

So, if the book cover says 'Mein Kampf' you should not judge it.
Sorry Tom, must disagree.
Failing to observe the obvious is an easy way of lining yourself up for a Darwin award.
So an insect has black and yellow stripes?
ignore it?
People who choose to dress in anti social ways are more than likely to have anti social values.
Now I have a few friends who do exactly that (Camo etc), but it took a long time for me to accept them and they still are only tolerated acquaintances rather than real friends.

 

[soundwave]

if it was me id have dealt with her there and then id have taken the knife of her and stabbed it in the top of the skull and snapped the handle off it

 

[LeighPing]

if it was me id have dealt with her there and then id have taken the knife of her and stabbed it in the top of the skull and snapped the handle off it

I've no further questions your honour.

 

[anotherkiwi]

But there's also blatant sexism in favour of women within the whole justice system, so that may have been the cause here. One only has to watch the police programs on TV to see it in action, and case outcomes as here are commonly very unfairly much softer on women.

In one case that particularly annoyed me, a married woman was for a very long time running a large scale benefits scam using numerous false identities. She was employing her relatives, neighbours, friends and even her husband as the stooges to collect the money regularly in return for a percentage.

She got a small community order, her husband got two years custodial for his very minor role. Clearly the judge must have thought the husband should have prevented her doing what she did, but what age was he living in, thinking husbands can control their wives in that manner? Women these days make their own minds up, and that's how it should be.

And of course women regularly escape prison and even adequate community orders, simply because they have children who might otherwise have to be taken into care.

That needs to change and it's quite simple how, treat it like we do driving without a licence offences. Then any driving ban imposed takes effect at any future time the offender gets a licence, it commencing with the ban period.

Women with children should be sentenced on the same basis, sentenced to the just period of prison for the offence, to be served at such time as any children reached a suitable age, be that 18 years for example.
.

On a similar vein in another country it seems that Senor Pujol of Catalan political corruption fame may not have been the villain but simply the puppet of Senora Ferrusola Pujol...

 

[Emo Rider]

No it doesn't, because in this case you aren't in full possession of the facts.

It was made clear in court that the woman who created and ran the scheme was by far the most guilty, but she had young children and escaped the imprisonment so clearly due and received a light community order instead. The father of the children didn't get that consideration and got the two years custodial.

So much for equality and justice, why should it be ok for the children to lose their father but wrong to lose their mother? Justice would have seen the father getting a community order for his minor part and left with the children, while the mother got the punishment she deserved.

It seems enlightenment has limitations, and it was this that angered me.
.

Yup! Why could not have the father taken care of the children? Ask any father that has been drawn, hung and quartered by the family court system. To them, including myself, fair, equal and unbiased are words that do not exist in courtrooms it seems.

As for a woman that attacked and grievously injured a man, recieving no punishment sets a worrisome precedent for future procecutions. Sentencing these days, in general, seem to take very little into consideration with regards to what the victims went through these days.

 

[LeighPing]

if it was me id have dealt with her there and then id have taken the knife of her and stabbed it in the top of the skull and snapped the handle off it

Sadly, had that have been the case, a good brief (not unlike the one she must have had) would probably go for a self defence verdict. Especially with her prolonged and sustained vicious attack, and her clearly documented complex history of abuse.

On a lighter note.. Don't worry folks, the new bike laws will he here soon enough.

Or should that be don't worry 'guys'?

 

[oldtom]

Some people, rather a lot of people in fact, have found the sentencing by Judge Ian Pringle, less that appropriate in the case of the vicious stabbing by the clever Oxford student. It is very sad that such preconceptions exist today as appears to have been the case with Justice Pringle. It is hardly surprising though when we see such similar stupidity expressed by members of this forum - I'm looking at you, Mike Killay!

Such misconceptions based on the appearance of fellow human beings and the resort to stereotyping people based on one's personal notion of what is or is not appropriate dress code is no way to judge ones fellow man. Your ridiculous parable about Mein Kampf in no way reflects the matter at hand and cannot excuse you from your discriminatory comments in your post. You ought to be ashamed!

lavinia-woodward-oxford-sentence-backlash-13675005

Tom

 

[mike killay]

Tom,
You really don't like people disagreeing with you do you?
You will not tolerate the views of others.
Your ridiculous parable about Mein Kampf.
Can you explain what is ridiculous about it?
You said don't judge a book by its cover.

cannot excuse you from your discriminatory comments in your post.
I merely pointed out that stereotyping is not necessarily a bad thing (Unless you have far left views) and gave sensible examples.
I don't need excusing except in your eyes.
To me, you fit the definition of Bigotry.