it is not about the battery , it is about the setting ,the peak A in the software, since they lost the most importment chilf engineer, they cannot controll this technical problem any more.... try to talk to them and fix the software , for save the power.....
TSD2 range ?!
- Thread starter Simon Knight
- Start date
Reducing your overall drag is a great idea. Bicycling science (table 5.1) lists the power required to overcome air drag for various cycle types at 22 m.p.h (10m/s): Upright commuting bike 345W, road bike touring position 220W all the way to an M5 faired low racer at 24.2 W so there are gains to be made.
As to fitness I seem to be making a greater effort thanks to the motor, time will tell.
S
My calculation says that you could have used a maximum of about 150wh until the first bar went on your display if everything is set correctly. For 60 miles at an average of 12 mph, that would be an average of 30 watts from the battery, or 21 watts of actual help.
The first thing I'd check if my battery was showing full on my LCD after 60 miles is whether it's set to 48v or 36v, and if it turns out that it's set correctly, I'd be looking to save weight by removing the electric kit. I know that when I ride my road bike, the effort is about the same for the same speed as on my electric bike on level one using about 50w from the battery or 35w of actul help. That's at an average speed of 14 mph (hilly).
The LCD should have automatic voltage recognition between 36v and 48v, but I know that if you fist connect a nearly flat battery to some LCDs, the software wrongly interprets the battery voltage, so you have to disonnect the battery and reset the LCD before reconnecting to a charged battery to get it right.
If you're using that little amount of power over a journey, the small amount of help you're getting will be cancelled by the extra effort you need to get the bike up any incline. You've added about 7kg mass that will require approximately 7% more effort to move the bike on any sort of incline at the same speed as without the extra 7kg.
There is no magic with any electric bike. Yes, it feels like there is, especially when you first get one, but it works according to the laws of physics. There is energy stored in the battery. You can use about 70% of it if you're careful, and you can use it to get a tiny bit of help over a long time or use it up much faster and get more help but for a shorter time, or any combination of those scenarios.
Whatever range anybody gets out of any battery with any motor is determined mainly by themselves and their circumstances, not so much by the bike, and hardly any difference from the electrical system in normal circumstances. Speed has a very significant effect on the power needed, and streamlining (drag) makes a big difference when you're going fast. Neither of those has anything to do with the electrical system.
I guarantee that I can get a range of 200 miles out of any normal electric bike that you put in front of me.
The first thing I'd check if my battery was showing full on my LCD after 60 miles is whether it's set to 48v or 36v, and if it turns out that it's set correctly, I'd be looking to save weight by removing the electric kit. I know that when I ride my road bike, the effort is about the same for the same speed as on my electric bike on level one using about 50w from the battery or 35w of actul help. That's at an average speed of 14 mph (hilly).
The LCD should have automatic voltage recognition between 36v and 48v, but I know that if you fist connect a nearly flat battery to some LCDs, the software wrongly interprets the battery voltage, so you have to disonnect the battery and reset the LCD before reconnecting to a charged battery to get it right.
If you're using that little amount of power over a journey, the small amount of help you're getting will be cancelled by the extra effort you need to get the bike up any incline. You've added about 7kg mass that will require approximately 7% more effort to move the bike on any sort of incline at the same speed as without the extra 7kg.
There is no magic with any electric bike. Yes, it feels like there is, especially when you first get one, but it works according to the laws of physics. There is energy stored in the battery. You can use about 70% of it if you're careful, and you can use it to get a tiny bit of help over a long time or use it up much faster and get more help but for a shorter time, or any combination of those scenarios.
Whatever range anybody gets out of any battery with any motor is determined mainly by themselves and their circumstances, not so much by the bike, and hardly any difference from the electrical system in normal circumstances. Speed has a very significant effect on the power needed, and streamlining (drag) makes a big difference when you're going fast. Neither of those has anything to do with the electrical system.
I guarantee that I can get a range of 200 miles out of any normal electric bike that you put in front of me.
- I'm not sure I understand what you are saying?
- AFAIK the controller has a design maximum current of 15 amps and I would expect the OEM firmware to stop the current going beyond this limit especially on a motor designated as 250w, unless you know otherwise of course?
- If Open Source Firmware is being used, the max current can be changed but of course it would not be a good idea to go beyond 15 amps.
- @Simon Knight and @Bogmonster666 - you guys are getting great ranges out of your batteries which I'd think is mainly down to the max assist speed being set to 25kph (15.6mph) and you spending a good amount of time riding faster than that.
- I friend of mine has a Fazua fitted bike with a 250Wh battery and the battery still had charge after a 70 mile ride as he often rode above the 25kph cut-off.
- All testimony to using a lighter bike, more aerodynamic clothing/bike profile and being fit enough to peddle above 25kph.
![20230409_161905[1].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/48/48947-5f69d5f08192083037562b4e117bc06e.jpg)
Tbh, I suspect I am on the cusp of not really needing an ebike. I suspect if I had a decent road or gravel bike I would do ok for regular cycling. Tonight I cycled back from the pub after caving with 2 X 25l panniers crammed with totally mud caked cave equipment - the mud is quite something. The wind is ~40mph and I have just come down with a stinking cold and feel crap. It was great to put the bike on 'sport' and stick just below the assist level and let the motor take some of the strain. Likewise, with a supermarket run and 800 ft of ascent on the return, the motor will be a godsend.
On the utility front there is also a time aspect - it's 7 miles back from the supermarket with the big hill and in the ebike I can do that in 30 mins with shopping. There is no way I could do that on a non-ebike.
But I tend to think a bike either with a minimal motor or no motor will be better suited if I really want to do long rides. I've never really had a decent road bike so no idea what I could really achieve. I can see me ending up with an ebike workhorse and potentially a gravel bike with drop bars for leisure riding.
But the range thing is a useful exercise and a fun experiment.
C
On the utility front there is also a time aspect - it's 7 miles back from the supermarket with the big hill and in the ebike I can do that in 30 mins with shopping. There is no way I could do that on a non-ebike.
But I tend to think a bike either with a minimal motor or no motor will be better suited if I really want to do long rides. I've never really had a decent road bike so no idea what I could really achieve. I can see me ending up with an ebike workhorse and potentially a gravel bike with drop bars for leisure riding.
But the range thing is a useful exercise and a fun experiment.
C
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Simon has 48V 15AH battery with Panasonic 217000 5,000mAH cells. The first bar would start to go as you said, after around (54-1.3)V*3AH=158W, so 150WH is very much ball park figure.
He managed 60 miles, that's an average 3WH per mile, which is excellent but there are two factors:
1) he still has strong legs - when you go from non-electric to electric, your pedalling is still excellent
2) he has a recumbent - which is aerodynamically much more efficient to slice through the air
I am pretty sure that overtime, the average consumption will go up but those early figures are still very pleasing to see.
The main weakness of the TSDZ2 is in the area of waterproofing. The water seal on the casing is a very thin (about 2.5mm-3mm thick) O-ring. It's fiddly to re-install the gasket correctly after you open the case. If I were to suggest an improvement, I would use a thicker O-ring or add a second O-ring.
I would recommend that owners a) never ride through a deep puddle, b) stick some deflector on the front of the motor or do like Vidtek, put some cling film over the casing.
Riding home last night there was a lot of standing water - fortunately the roads were deserted so I could weave about.
As I understand it the main weak points are the seals under the chainring. These are not particularly easy to protect with a deflector (other than mudguards obviously). It almost needs something unsightly like an old fashioned static chain guard that covers top and bottom of chainring....let's hope toSeven have cracked this problem in their new motor. I am having a think on options and can imagine the shape of the deflector, struggling to work out how to mount it...
My guess is that tyre spray from below will pose more of an issue than rain from above?
Ultimately though, periodic checking as suggested by @Bikes4two may still be required.
C
As I understand it the main weak points are the seals under the chainring. These are not particularly easy to protect with a deflector (other than mudguards obviously). It almost needs something unsightly like an old fashioned static chain guard that covers top and bottom of chainring....let's hope toSeven have cracked this problem in their new motor. I am having a think on options and can imagine the shape of the deflector, struggling to work out how to mount it...
My guess is that tyre spray from below will pose more of an issue than rain from above?
Ultimately though, periodic checking as suggested by @Bikes4two may still be required.
C
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let's hope so. Whenever a new motor is introduced, there is an opportunity to improve. Some areas that have been candidates for improvement:
1. Stronger motor spindle. It rarely breaks but it's still a weak point. As the motor spins twice as fast as the BBS01, it should be as strong as the BBS01's spindle, not smaller.
2. Water proofing that we discussed. If you look at the underside of the motor, you can see the joint line. That is where water can get in, albeit very little. Water turns into steam and there is no escape route. A channel for the steam to escape would fix this.
3. A configurator tool for those who wants to tinker with their motor and not to have to rely on OSF firmware which will forever remain outside the warranty.
4. A better torque sensor. The torque sensor on the TSDZ2 is very clever but the friction between the rotating coil (chainring side) and the fixed coil (on the controller side) can detoriate the separator over time, forcing you to replace the whole thing. Bafang torque sensor is better built.
Tsdz2 main reported failures are air space within the motor unit and heat simply not being able to cool by passing to the exterior casing ( Air being a poor heat conductor).
The axle having a circlip groove that leads to the RHS especially snapping ( more so on the 100mm BB models).
Also lateral play on both cranks with insufficient bearing support on both sides (fortunately the fix is a simple cheap one).
The axle having a circlip groove that leads to the RHS especially snapping ( more so on the 100mm BB models).
Also lateral play on both cranks with insufficient bearing support on both sides (fortunately the fix is a simple cheap one).
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Not sure I want to know of all the failure modes...... head in sand! However, I will look at adding some extra water proofing / deflection before I venture out in the wet.
I have decided that the six bar battery display is not very useful so am in the process of adding a volt meter. I purchased these from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09XTMJTHW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details. Beware, they are not waterproof as water can get in from the rear so I've potted mine with glue from a hot glue gun and mounted it above the display at the front of my trike in the hope that it will give me a better idea of the state of charge.
S
I have decided that the six bar battery display is not very useful so am in the process of adding a volt meter. I purchased these from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09XTMJTHW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details. Beware, they are not waterproof as water can get in from the rear so I've potted mine with glue from a hot glue gun and mounted it above the display at the front of my trike in the hope that it will give me a better idea of the state of charge.
S
I would be interested to know how much use folks get out if a TSDZ2 before
C
I've bodged something with damp proof course wrapped around the housing and secured with cable ties. It ain't pretty but I think it will deflect the worst of the water.
C
Most of the issues are thsoe generally reported on ES where as usual they don't use the drives as intended, the obsession is to abuse drives with power and voltages well beyond the designed capabilities.
They do though, do most a favour by finding out the weaknesses and how far to push a drive.
They do though, do most a favour by finding out the weaknesses and how far to push a drive.
Hi, on reflection I should have chosen a better title for this thread, probably "how accurate is the battery charge indicator?" The short answer is "not very". This is confirmed by forum comments and a few reviews like this one.
Initially I suspected that a voltage setting in the display was incorrectly set as you suggest, but I have been unable to find such a setting and if it were set to 36 volts then my 48 volt battery would register full charge throughout its 41v-54v cycle. Instead it has dropped one bar when the battery is just under 50% charge (76 miles). It is what it is so I am fitting a small digital volt meter to help me judge the state of the battery.https://www.darkerside.org/2021/03/tongsheng-tsdz2-review/ said:
I can only dream of averaging 14 mph. Over the decades of recreational cycling when measured I average something like 10mph. I decided the simplest solution was to stop measuring and just enjoy the world at a slower speed. Nowadays if I am cycling faster than I can walk I call it a win.
You may ask so why have I fitted an electric motor?
My main reason is so that I don't use my car as much as I have in the past. I live out in the sticks where the amenities are between two and twelve miles away. Any one journey is quite doable on any cycle but several in one day can be more of a challenge especially if loaded with shopping and riding into a 30 kt headwind.
Last year I went to the York show and visited the ICE stand and tried out their newest trikes. Some were demonstrator machines and a number were personal machines that were in almost daily use. What was striking was with the exception of the VTX racing demonstrator I think all of them were fitted with motors. I was talking with one of the founding directors of ICE and asked why they had so many etrikes on their stand, one of the reasons stated was "because they are so much fun".
You mention system mass versus assistance used and that I might be better removing the motor system. You could be correct but I suspect that I have been using more power than the battery state indicator implies. Probably 2/3rds of the charge capacity over the 76 miles ridden to date which I think suggests that the motor and battery have been of use and not just dead weight.
As you imply the actual range figure is not that relevant as everyone's use case is different. When compared to my unassisted rides I see that the motor will allow me to achieve one of two things : 1) ride at higher speed over a similar distance or 2) ride a greater distance at a similar speed. I also hope that my motor will mean that I will ride more often and possibly get fitter but only time will tell.
S
I agree. Its a pity that there is not a similar obsession with efficiency.
If my Tongsheng lasts a couple of years I will be happy. After all it is not expensive to replace and unlike some of the big name systems spares are available for a reasonable cost.
So, I understand the calculation for wh per bar of the display - that's simple enough.
My question is about assistance at various cadences. I know the tsdz2 motor notionally like to spin at 4000 rpm ( which I am guessing is at 48v ). So presumably it is happy spinning somewhat faster at 54v on a fresh battery ~4500 rpm and as the battery depletes to 41v then ~3400 rpm?
I have only taken the battery down to 3 bars on the display but it really felt like everything was slowing down considerably and I was having to work a lot harder. I suspect it was because I was trying to maintain a higher cadence that worked ok'ish on the fresh battery but not on the half depleted battery. The issue not being the level of assistance the motor can give, rather the drop in cadence that the assistance can be delivered. Basically, needing to reduce my pedal cadence to a point that feels very unnatural - or just do all the work myself.
Edit: I have just done some calculations based on speed, wheel size and gearing. I think I was getting reasonable assistance at ~85 rpm on a full battery and ~75 rpm on a half depleted battery. This kind of makes sense I think and ties in with others who have said the tsdz2 peaks at about 75rpm at the pedals.
Edit 2:
4000 rpm is ~89% of 4500 rpm
75rpm is 88% of 85rpm
Close enough I think. Assuming I have not screwed up I think I can expect assistance at a miserable ~64rpm when the battery is almost fully depleted
C
My question is about assistance at various cadences. I know the tsdz2 motor notionally like to spin at 4000 rpm ( which I am guessing is at 48v ). So presumably it is happy spinning somewhat faster at 54v on a fresh battery ~4500 rpm and as the battery depletes to 41v then ~3400 rpm?
I have only taken the battery down to 3 bars on the display but it really felt like everything was slowing down considerably and I was having to work a lot harder. I suspect it was because I was trying to maintain a higher cadence that worked ok'ish on the fresh battery but not on the half depleted battery. The issue not being the level of assistance the motor can give, rather the drop in cadence that the assistance can be delivered. Basically, needing to reduce my pedal cadence to a point that feels very unnatural - or just do all the work myself.
Edit: I have just done some calculations based on speed, wheel size and gearing. I think I was getting reasonable assistance at ~85 rpm on a full battery and ~75 rpm on a half depleted battery. This kind of makes sense I think and ties in with others who have said the tsdz2 peaks at about 75rpm at the pedals.
Edit 2:
4000 rpm is ~89% of 4500 rpm
75rpm is 88% of 85rpm
Close enough I think. Assuming I have not screwed up I think I can expect assistance at a miserable ~64rpm when the battery is almost fully depleted
C
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In practice I think then that only the 1st half of the battery capacity is of practical use to me. The assisted cadence on the 1st couple of bars is ok but by bar 3 it was not nice. I think 80 to 90 rpm is comfortable for me. Less than 75 rpm just feels completely wrong, especially on hills - the amount of power I can deliver at lower cadences is greatly restricted and I find it much harder on my knees, I am an old codger after all.
In due course I think I will need to flash with OSF with its field weakening and support for higher cadence. Maybe I can adjust my cycling style but I doubt it. Fortunately the range of the 1st couple of bars is enough for now so not a big deal. I'll make the most of the warranty period before I flash the motor.
I'll do some more experimenting when my cold goes.
C
In due course I think I will need to flash with OSF with its field weakening and support for higher cadence. Maybe I can adjust my cycling style but I doubt it. Fortunately the range of the 1st couple of bars is enough for now so not a big deal. I'll make the most of the warranty period before I flash the motor.
I'll do some more experimenting when my cold goes.
C
Thank you for the detailed remarks. I will look into how to optimise the motor for a specific cadence regardless of battery voltage.
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