Trial E-scooters in London - additional conditions

[flecc]

This month London joined in with an e-scooter trial, but with additional conditions for safety. I've highlighted these in bold in the rules below:

E-scooters are available to rent in four London boroughs to start with, Ealing, Hammersmith and Fulham, Kensington and Chelsea, Richmond upon Thames. Scooters can also be hired in Canary Wharf and ridden throughout the borough of Tower Hamlets. The City of London is due to join in July.

Rental e-scooters in the UK have maximum limits of 15.5mph (24.9km/h) but the London trials use technology to creat enforced "go-slow areas", where the top speed is reduced to 8mph (13km/h) for safety, and the rental e-scooters in London have front and rear lights.

To use an e-scooter from an official trial, you need to have category Q entitlement on your driving licence, but no L plates are needed with a UK provisional licence. Foreign provisional licences are not permitted. Helmets are recommended but not compulsory.

Can I hire one straight away? No. In London you have to complete an online course first.

The Met Police say they will issue fines of £50 for riding on the footway - and £100 and six driving licence penalty points for using a mobile phone or riding through a red light. The drink driving laws apply too.
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[Benjahmin]

I'm not sure if this clarifies things or further muddies the water.
8mph is the limit for road going invalid carriages, as far as I know they don't have to have number plates. Pavement ones are limited to 5mph. So road going only then. Where does that leave the, 'Cyclists can ride on the pavement if you feel in danger' thing? Is the 8mph operable only in pedestrian areas?

Not having pedals then a motorised scooter is a motor vehicle - isn't it? The need for a licence seems to confirm this, so do they have number plates? The licence requirement, whist understandable, is concerning for pedelecers. This grey area between cycle and motor vehicle could come under further scrutiny, with all the implied complications.
Front and rear lights provided - how about a bell/horn?

Personally I wouldn't go near one of these things, I like sitting on my bike ! But I am concerened that their existence and, seemingly, ad hoc adoption is creating anomolies and contradictions in vehicle law, that could end up affecting our free use of pedelec technology.

 

[flecc]

I'm not sure if this clarifies things or further muddies the water.
8mph is the limit for road going invalid carriages, as far as I know they don't have to have number plates. Pavement ones are limited to 5mph. So road going only then. Where does that leave the, 'Cyclists can ride on the pavement if you feel in danger' thing? Is the 8mph operable only in pedestrian areas?

Not having pedals then a motorised scooter is a motor vehicle - isn't it? The need for a licence seems to confirm this, so do they have number plates? The licence requirement, whist understandable, is concerning for pedelecers. This grey area between cycle and motor vehicle could come under further scrutiny, with all the implied complications.
Front and rear lights provided - how about a bell/horn?

Personally I wouldn't go near one of these things, I like sitting on my bike ! But I am concerened that their existence and, seemingly, ad hoc adoption is creating anomolies and contradictions in vehicle law, that could end up affecting our free use of pedelec technology.

Some answers below. Basically there has always been a muddled area between what are motor vehicles and what are not, so that with the e- scooter trials is nothing new:

8mph is the limit for road going invalid carriages. - Correct

Pavement ones are limited to 5mph. - No, it's 4 mph.

'Cyclists can ride on the pavement if you feel in danger'. - This was ministerial guidance to differentiate between responsible use and irresponsible. It basically means only when the danger is real and one must have due regard for pedestrians, not frightening them, implying less than 8 mph. It's for the police to administer and they do it rather well.

Is the 8mph operable only in pedestrian areas? - No, it's everywhere in the UK.

Not having pedals then a motorised scooter is a motor vehicle - isn't it? - It depends on whether it has a seat, read on further.

But I am concerned that their existence and, seemingly, ad hoc adoption is creating anomolies and contradictions in vehicle law. - As said at the start, these have always existed. The EU tidied this up for us with the Two and Three Wheeled Type Approval Law in 2003, since this has a set of 11 exemptions from being classified as motor vehicles and this still applies here in the UK. The pedelecs one is exemption (h) and the others take care of such things as mobility chairs, off road vehicles, agricultural vehicles, pedestrian controlled walk-along vehicles, those driven but operating below 6 kph which takes care of kids pavement cars, vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position which takes care of e-scooters, self-balancing vehicles like Segways and vehicles with exceptionally low seating positions below certain specified heights.

Note that all of these still have to have a specific permission for use, which the last two don't have in the UK and e-scooters only for the trials at present.

It's these specific permissions which by clarification take care of the practicalities, such as whether number plates, L plates, lights, bells, horns etc are required.

The one thing to be concerned about is that government is currently seeing e-scooters as being related to pedelecs, which they very clearly are not.
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[StuartsProjects]

What intrigues me is the apparent ability of 'technology' to externally control or restrict the speed of these eScooters.

Is this a real ability that has actually been implemented, and if so how does it work ?

Or is this so called 'technology' pie in the sky from our politicians the keep the masses happy ?

 

[flecc]

What intrigues me is the apparent ability of 'technology' to externally control or restrict the speed of these eScooters.

Is this a real ability that has actually been implemented, and if so how does it work ?

Or is this so called 'technology' pie in the sky from our politicians the keep the masses happy ?

It's onboard GPS, zones in which the scooter's performance is cut by half.
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[StuartsProjects]

It's onboard GPS, zones in which the scooter's performance is cut by half.

Thanks.

Intriguing, so how does the eScooter get updated with the "go-slow" regions ?

And I wonder what happens if the GPS does not have a position lock, as its not exactly difficult to prevent a GPS getting a lock.

 

[flecc]

Thanks.

Intriguing, so how does the eScooter get updated with the "go-slow" regions ?

Probably not need for the trial since London's streets aren't constantly changing, just software set as they are issued. The trial zones are set of course, use only legal within them, and their range must be somewhat limited. I've no idea how they keep them charged up since they don't appear to be docked in charging bays.
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[soundwave]

Need extra cash? Try charging electric scooters

If you're looking to make some extra cash, you may want to try your hand at charging scooters.

www.wrtv.com

 

[StuartsProjects]

Some of the trials appear to claim the "go-slow" and "no-go" geofence areas have been or are being implemented.

Whilst I can see how that would work with a rental scheme; the eScooter firmware could be loaded with the current geo-fence for that particular area, either when new or during the (presumably regular) service.

But I cannot see how that could operate on a national non-rental basis.

Unless the intention is to keep buisinesses happy and there is actually no intention to allow for the genearl public to buy and legally use their own eScooters.

 

[flecc]

Some of the trials appear to claim the "go-slow" and "no-go" geofence areas have been or are being implemented.

Whilst I can see how that would work with a rental scheme; the eScooter firmware could be loaded with the current geo-fence for that particular area, either when new or during the (presumably regular) service.

But I cannot see how that could operate on a national non-rental basis.

It won't be needed if national permission is given for owned e-scooters, since they'll be operating at a fixed compromise speed. The government has made it clear that if legalised they favour conformity with the EU (Presumably nobody has told them we've left!). That means no more 15.5 mph, instead a fixed up to 12 mph all the time and 350 watts maximum.

Unless the intention is to keep businesses happy and there is actually no intention to allow for the general public to buy and legally use their own eScooters.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. That genie is out of the bottle now, Halfords making sure of that.
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[StuartsProjects]

It won't be needed if national permission is given for owned e-scooters, since they'll be operating at a fixed compromise speed. The government has made it clear that if legalised they favour conformity with the EU (Presumably nobody has told them we've left!). That means no more 15.5 mph, instead a fixed up to 12 mph all the time and 350 watts maximum.

So for the trial only, its possible to set "go-slow" or "no-go" areas, but these restrictiobns wont apply to eScooters outside of the trial, if they go national ?

 

[flecc]

So for the trial only, its possible to set "go-slow" or "no-go" areas, but these wont apply outside of the trial, if it goes national ?

Presumably, hence the lower intended maximum speed to match what appears to be working on the Continent.

The London limitations are a condition of the supplying companies permission, since the Mayor and GLC are not happy about the e-scooters safety, so speed restrictions and the online course before use. The course could become national, such user safety certificates exist in France and some US states as an intermediate stage between being unqualified and a driving licence.

If these do get permitted nationally a driving licence almost certainly won't be necessary as it is now, since the legal route for that already exists for implementation. All it needs is the law permitting GB use to be added, since that will automatically exempt an e-scooter from being a motor vehicle.
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[Scorpio]

The Met Police have concerns and have described E-Scooters as“Death traps”, it will be intersting to see how
they implement the law in the new trial zones.
(terrible accent but decent content) https://www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/dan-wootton-e-scooters-disaster-waiting-to-happen/107734

Ebike & E-scooters are becoming a problem, the legal system always takes time to catch up with new technology (drones?), and often over-reacts when it does (now needing a licence for drones).
How long before ebikes & scooters need registration / licences / training / safety MOTs before you can use them legally, and how much will we have to pay for the new requirements?
We are in the "golden age" of Ebiking, enjoy it, the freedoms won't last forever.

 

[soundwave]

Huge powered transporter seized as police catch rider on pavement

Specialist operations officers warn public about their use

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

them things can go 45mph

Scooter seized by police taken away on 7.5 tonne lorry

'Couldn't they have just put it in the back of a car instead of wasting money paying for an expensive recovery vehicle'

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

pmsl

 

[StuartsProjects]

How long before ebikes & scooters need registration / licences / training / safety MOTs before you can use them legally, and how much will we have to pay for the new requirements?

One might think that inevitable such restrictions are introduced for eBikes, if there is to be "registration / licences / training / safety MOTs" for eScooters.

And it would be logical to introduce such changes under the same regulations and at the same time as for eScooters.

We are in the "golden age" of Ebiking, enjoy it, the freedoms won't last forever.

I would agree and unfortunately there are plenty of people in the medical\health sector who would argue for such restrictions on 'safety' grounds, with little regard for the overall consequences.

 

[flecc]

The Met Police have concerns and have described E-Scooters as“Death traps”, it will be intersting to see how they implement the law in the new trial zones.

They are a branch of the Nanny State of course and have no more influence than that.

How long before ebikes & scooters need registration / licences / training / safety MOTs before you can use them legally, and how much will we have to pay for the new requirements?
We are in the "golden age" of Ebiking, enjoy it, the freedoms won't last forever.

One might think that inevitable such restrictions are introduced for eBikes, if there is to be "registration / licences / training / safety MOTs" for eScooters.

And it would be logical to introduce such changes under the same regulations and at the same time as for eScooters.

I don't have such a gloomy view. The government is very keen on getting people out of cars and onto low speed two wheels and have made it clear they don't favour any changes that impede that. The House of Commons Transport Committee are strongly in favour of e-scooters being legalised. If they are legalised it's virtually certain they will no longer be motor vehicles so not subject to registration, number plates, driving licences etc.

One thing that might happen is compulsory third party insurance, but even that is very unlikely for practical reasons.

Another thing that might happen is the need for a safety certificate before use is permitted.
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[StuartsProjects]

I don't have such a gloomy view. The government is very keen on getting people out of cars and onto low speed two wheels and have made it clear they don't favour any changes that impede that. The House of Commons Transport Committee are strongly in favour of e-scooters being legalised. If they are legalised it's virtually certain they will no longer be motor vehicles so not subject to registration, number plates, driving licences etc.

I am not so confident that our politicians in the UK will get it right. Plenty examples in the last few years of them saying one thing and the reality being very different, they lie.

One thing that might happen is compulsory third party insurance, but even that is very unlikely for practical reasons.

That could become a requirement, maybe as a sop to the nay-sayers, and standard driving insurance might well cover it, but for the young (who have dont have driving insurance) it would not be a surprise to me if observance of this requirement was close to zero.

 

[flecc]

I am not so confident that our politicians in the UK will get it right.

They've already got it wrong. The belief in e-scooters of the House of Commons Transport Committee is based on their being convinced they will get drivers out of cars.

Idiocy of a very high order.
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[StuartsProjects]

They've already got it wrong. The belief in e-scooters of the House of Commons Transport Committee is based on their being convinced they will get drivers out of cars.

Idiocy of a very high order.
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I would concur, complete Idiocy.

What I would expect is that a lot of young people, who dont have cars because they are not cheap to own or insure, will switch from walking (good for their health!) or using public transport to using eScooters.

Of course the switchers could cycle at low cost, but zooming around, niping here and tucking in there, is a bit like a video game and a lot more cool than actual exersize.

 

[flecc]

Of course the switchers could cycle at low cost, but zooming around, niping here and tucking in there, is a bit like a video game and a lot more cool than actual exersize.

Exactly my opinion too, e-scooters are very obviously fun and addictive. I fear we've opened a Pandora's box by considering legalising them.
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