Trek Cytronex - First Impressions.

[frank9755]

John,
I didn't realise you didn't use your bikes for commuting - you certainly do a lot of miles considering it is leisure only. As you say, they are good value for money if you use them enough!
One thing to try if you find you are getting wrist pain from having too much weight on your hands is to adjust the angle of your saddle very slightly upwards at the front. That will make your weight naturally move backwards, onto your saddle and off your wrists. A couple of degrees can make a big difference!

Frank

 

[frank9755]

I agree with Matt's comments, too. Some people don't mind, but for a segment of the population it is important to have something that looks and sounds like a bike, and this is the nearest production model by far. The Tongxin motor is so small people think it is a dynamo!

I think the idea of lights for the throttle buttons is a good one. I know my Wisper, which has three buttons giving 8 possible settings, is a nightmare to figure out which combination is pressed or not pressed. The Cytronex clearly has better ergonomics than that but I think it would help people getting on the first few times. Mark is also right that it would be more clutter and distraction, and as a rider you would soon get the feel of it. But someone who no longer needed the lights could get rid of them or cover with black tape!

 

[Chris_Bike]

I think it won't be long before they're struggling to keep up with orders for this bike

........... I am yet to see an ebike that is anywhere near as cosmetically pleasing as this one.

I'm not a fashion obsessed teenager, but I am ashamed to say that I would still feel a little bit silly arriving to college on one of the panasonic range or even a Wisper, even with their relative good looks for an ebike and rather embarrassed if I had to relay the cost of one to anyone that asked, but I don't think I would have any issues whatsoever with the Trek.

Oh dear, I think I am going to have to come out as a bit image conscious on the bike......... I can probably trace it back to all those hours gazing lovingly through the window of my local bike shop as a kid admiring the latest gear from Campagnolo.

My wife started trying to get me interested in E bikes about 2 years ago and I did get on the web to see what was available. I thought most looked dreadful in a 1940s moped sort of way. The Wisper was just appearing and I wondered if I could grow to love it. Then, this year, I saw the early marketing for the Pro Connect and thought that it was enough of a "normal looking" bike to seduce me. Indeed, I went to Presteigne with the intention of buying 2. It was my wife who first spotted the Trek and, having tried both, I was won over. The Pro Connect was great, but it was the normal feel and look of the Cytronex that won the day.

I'm on here because it is pouring with rain and I don't fancy riding in it. I will go and re-position Lynne's rear light in a bit (having fitted a rear rack - not one on each hip Flecc!) I might then come and post about racks on the Trek - the issue is more complicated that you might think.

 

[Chris_Bike]

Well, it's still raining and I'm still stuck inside. I've moved Lynne's rear light to her rear rack (more of that later) so here's my take on racks. It's written around the Trek, but the same applies to any small framed bike, especially if it has a sloping top tube.

The problem with racks on bikes like these is that the overall size of the rear triangle in defined by the size of the wheel (700c) so, as the seat tube gets shorter, the anchor bosses (usually fitted to the top of the seat stays) become more and more remote from where thay need to attach (via the supplied fittings) to the rack.

Some racks are advertised as coming with extra long fittings for small frames. I bought this for my (50cm) Trek: Tor Tec Tour rear rack . It comes with fittings that are JUST long enough to connect to the carrier. For a frame like Lynne's (38cm), whatever rack you buy, you will need longer stays. These: Thorn XL stainless steel carrier fittings 340mm lo do the job well, but at a pcice (£15). They are thick stainless steel but bend easily when secured in a vice. I used a Park chainring truing tool, but the jaws of an adjustable spanner would do just as well. I just bent a little at a time until I got the shape that worked. The final set up is very rigid.

If you fit a rack to a small frame you will probably have to move the rear light from the seat pillar, where it will no longer be visible. Most racks come with a braket that will take your light. I just extended the wire on the Trek by soldering in a length, protecting the joints with heatshrink. A couple of zip ties make the set-up look as professional as the original.

Anyway, I hope this may help some others (and it's still raining).

 

[Cyclezee]

Went out for another ride this morning in the rain to buy a pair of Fox Unabombers.
Only a 6 mile roundtrip, but the bike performed well. I hope to go out again later this afternoon if it stops raining and continue battery conditioning.
One thing I noticed is the smooth Bontrager tyres don't throw up as much water as treaded tyres and they felt fairly safe in the wet. I suppose there is more rubber in contact with the tarmac and a bike is unlikely to aquaplane

J hn

 

[Cyclezee]

We did experiment with an LED light in the boost button to show when the motor is on because, as John says, the system is very quiet. However, we found the light quite distracting - particularly at night, and it detracts from the “hidden power” ethos. Also as I was testing the prototype with the LED indicator I soon realised that I had stopped looking at it altogether because I had got the feel for when the power is on.

When I suggested a power led, I wasn't thinking of it being on the switch as that would be distracting, I was thinking on the handlebars, on top of the bell would be cool if the wiring could be kept discreet.

J hn

 

[Cyclezee]

One thing to try if you find you are getting wrist pain from having too much weight on your hands is to adjust the angle of your saddle very slightly upwards at the front. That will make your weight naturally move backwards, onto your saddle and off your wrists. A couple of degrees can make a big difference!

Frank

Thanks for the suggestion Frank, but I don't think I really need to make any adjustments, I'm sure I will get used to it, particularly when right wrist gets stronger. After wearing a splint for the last few weeks, my right hand and wrist are quite weak.

J hn

 

[Cyclezee]

Well, it's still raining and I'm still stuck inside.

How about some photos Chris.........as it's raining It would be nice to see the changes you have made to your 2 bikes.
Have you completed the conditioning charging yet? If so what range are you getting? I would not expect to achieve the same range as you as I am quite a bit heavier and not as fit, but it would be intersting know.

J hn

 

[JohnInStockie]

Rack and mudguards

Hi Guys

I am very interested in this bike (have been since Presteigne - nice to meet you Mark & Sam), but the voice in my head is warning me about how this bike will perform when I load all my gear on it.

I would want as a minimum for my commute some Full Mudguards, a Strong Rack, my Airzound Air Horn, and then I will be carrying my 2 Ortlieb pannier with thier contents which can often hit 15Kg+ with laptop, files, waterproofs, toolkit, spanners, spare tube, tyreweld, e.t.c....

So my concerns are around how this bike will perform with all that on, or the ocasional 4yr old in his child seat and a pannier.

I know the Wispers / Kalkhoffs e.t.c. will easy handle it, but would I still get my 12 miles each way to work on 1 battery?

What do you guys think (Chris / John / Mark)

John

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Guys

I am very interested in this bike (have been since Presteigne - nice to meet you Mark & Sam), but the voice in my head is warning me about how this bike will perform when I load all my gear on it.

I would want as a minimum for my commute some Full Mudguards, a Strong Rack, my Airzound Air Horn, and then I will be carrying my 2 Ortlieb pannier with thier contents which can often hit 15Kg+ with laptop, files, waterproofs, toolkit, spanners, spare tube, tyreweld, e.t.c....

So my concerns are around how this bike will perform with all that on, or the ocasional 4yr old in his child seat and a pannier.

I know the Wispers / Kalkhoffs e.t.c. will easy handle it, but would I still get my 12 miles each way to work on 1 battery?

What do you guys think (Chris / John / Mark)

John

That's a lot of stuff to lug around John
I bought mine as a minimalist option to my Agattu, not as a beast of burden. If you could cut down the amount of things you carry and fit it in a back pack, you wouldn't need to fit a rack and panniers. I have a Belkin back pack which is designed to carry a laptop etc. Instead of mudguards you could wear a pair of waterproof trousers, after all it doesn't rain all the time. Your Airzound Horn weighs next to nothing, so that wouldn't be a problem.
That doesn't solve the child problem, can't help you there. There is no way I'm carting my 28 and 30 yearolds on a bike

If you kept it minimal, I think a Cytronex would do all you require.

J hn

 

[Chris_Bike]

OK John (Aldby) I will try to get some pictures up (I haven't signed up to Flickr yet, but I suppose it's inevitable). Yes, I think both our batteries are fully conditioned now. I've had 28 miles on a day when I missed most of the big hills. The lowest was 16 on an incredibly hilly circuit last weekend. I think that 20 is easily achieveable for most people in most terrain.

Which brings me to the other John (In Stockie). I think it depends on your route. 24 miles is certainly do-able (unless you ask a lot more of the motor that I do or the route is very hilly) but, as John says, that is a lot of gear. The bike is certainly robust enough to take it, but all that weight must reduce range. Having said that, a second battery costs £150 and neatly fits in the second bottle cage till you want it - so it would be possible.

 

[flecc]

I think that 20 is easily achieveable for most people in most terrain.

Mmmmm?

Powacycle Salisbury for example, 22 kilos, efficient Hall effect motor with only three quarters of the Nano's power, NiMh battery 8.5 Ah, most owners just about get 20 miles, and one has just recently posted 17 miles.

5 kilos off the bike just doesn't make that much difference, and taking JohnInStockies weight into account it's only just over 4% reduction of bike and rider weight. I think you greatly overestimate the pedalling input of most e-bike owners Chris. That's why I posted previously that many might only get 10 miles or so from that 4 Ah battery.

I'm sure from lots of experience that most people will not easily get 20 miles in most terrain as you've said, and a fair proportion of e-bike users couldn't get 20 miles at all.

I think many proficient cyclists will get 20 and even more miles ok, but only a minority of e-bikers are really proficient cyclists or even want to be, and many just use their bikes like motor vehicles.

This is not to put down what is clearly an excellent product, merely to observe that it's not a general purpose e-bike.
.

 

[Chris_Bike]

Mmmmm?

Powacycle Salisbury for example, 22 kilos, efficient Hall effect motor with only three quarters of the Nano's power, NiMh battery 8.5 Ah, most owners just about get 20 miles, and one has just recently posted 17 miles.

5 kilos off the bike just doesn't make that much difference, and taking JohnInStockies weight into account it's only just over 4% reduction of bike and rider weight. I think you greatly overestimate the pedalling input of most e-bike owners Chris. That's why I posted previously that many might only get 10 miles or so from that 4 Ah battery.

I'm sure from lots of experience that most people will not easily get 20 miles in most terrain as you've said, and a fair proportion of e-bike users couldn't get 20 miles at all.

I think many proficient cyclists will get 20 and even more miles ok, but only a minority of e-bikers are really proficient cyclists or even want to be, and many just use their bikes like motor vehicles.

This is not to put down what is clearly an excellent product, merely to observe that it's not a general purpose e-bike.
.

Well, John (Aldby) posted 13.5 miles from a not conditioned battery yesterday and he claims to be heavier than me. Let's see what he gets from a fully conditioned one............

 

[flecc]

I think John illustrates what I've said Chris, he's clearly a proficient cyclist who has owned many bikes and does quite a bit of cycling.

However, I've sounded the warning a second time and won't bother again. If the in-forum promotion continues as it has been there's likely be some disappointed new owners. Hopefully most people will realise in time that e-bikes aren't given costly 10 or 14 Ah batteries for no reason, even when they are only slightly heavier, and even when equipped with the same Tongxin motor as the Cytronex.
.

 

[Cyclezee]

Well, John (Aldby) posted 13.5 miles from a not conditioned battery yesterday and he claims to be heavier than me. Let's see what he gets from a fully conditioned one............

Hmmmmm,

After conditioning charge number 3, I did 3 miles this morning and only managed 5 miles this afternoon from the same charge. That makes 11 miles today, 2.5 miles less than yesterday on similar terrain. Will there be a quantum leap in range after charges 4 and 5? I wonder?

J hn

 

[flecc]

From years of experience with NiMh John, the answer is no. It illustrates what I warn of,the fact that ranges like 20 miles from 4 Ah are only possibly if the rider does most of the work. This was amply illustrated in A to B's Brompton Nano test where it was the 16 plus mph cyclist who did the mileage, not the motor driving only to 13 mph.

P.S. You probably haven't seen my last post at nearly the same time as yours.
.

 

[Chris_Bike]

Hmmmmm,

After conditioning charge number 3, I did 3 miles this morning and only managed 5 miles this afternoon from the same charge. That makes 11 miles today, 2.5 miles less than yesterday on similar terrain. Will there be a quantum leap in range after charges 4 and 5? I wonder?

J hn

I don't know John and I'm surprised that today's range was less than yesterday except that my quoted figures have always been on a single ride to exhaustion (the battery not me) with a recently charged (though sometimes the night before) battery. I don't know if that makes a difference?

ps Picking up Flecc's last point which I have just seen, what was your average speed and how much use of the motor were you making in which mode?

 

[flecc]

It won't do Chris, NiMh cells lose about 1 to 1.5% of charge per 24 hours, not enough to make any difference. Splitting usage into two can increase the range fractionally since some cell chemical recovery can occur but won't reduce it.
.

 

[Cyclezee]

Chris,
I have had the bike a week, but only started using it yesterday, so I am not going to jump to any rash conclusions. But I always read Flecc's words of wisdom with great reverence, because he a handful of other members know this subject inside out.
As Flecc says, I have ridden a lot of electric bikes and consider myself an experienced e-biker. However I am not a super fit cyclist by any strech of the imagination, overweight (that is something I am working on) and a mild asthmatic which actually troubles me very little. I was hoping to be able achieve 20 miles with moderate input that is now looking unlikely. One positive note, the bike is quite rideable without power, even by me, but that is not what I bought it for.
For me the jury is out.
It would be nice to hear some comments from Mark on this subject and any other owners.

John

 

[frank9755]

Flecc is right. Not to take anything away from the bike as I do think it is a great product for the right user, but a weak rider in hilly country will be lucky to get 5-10 miles from the 4Ah battery, and many people looking at getting electric bikes are weaker riders.

Picking up on the Powacycle example, my wife gets about 20 miles range from hers but on the same bike, I get 35-42 miles. My aim is not to boast but to show how dramatically the range increases if you spend a significant amount of time above the motor cut-off speed. Chris, you would perhaps get nearer 50 miles from one charge of a Powacycle, as it cuts off at a slightly lower speed than most other bikes.