tranzx system shuts off? raleigh stow-e-way

[baz-r]

18 months in and it seems Halfords are incapable of repairing or finding out what's up with my bike and raleigh dont want to give me any technical support other than sending me back to the retailer (halfords)

my issue is that the electrical system shuts off in use and drive, lights and controller shut off and will not turn back on? kind of dangerous with no lights in the pitch black of a main road! the battery its on and can be showing a full charge and pulling it out providing you have the key and reinstalling it in the bike resets it and will work again. it can do this in any power setting but usually on flat smooth road at normal speed.

its had a new battery, new charger and been with halfords more times than I can count and i have even resorted to try and diagnose it myself with the LOGIX software and checking over the electrical system (im a qualified electrical and mechanical engineer including automotive tec) but the system shows no faults logged and is dead in fault condition.

im taking it that it picks up some kind of issue that shuts the system off ? iv checked the battery to cradle contacts and it has not long had a new battery. there is a pcb under the battery that i assume controls the motor and connection look good, all tight and no signs of water ingress. the folding frame has all sorts of wiring internally and i have tried to check all of that and too but at a loos and stuck with a bike that halfords cant fix and over a year so im stuck with labour charges. another 6 months and i'm out of electrical parts warranty. bike has been a an issue since day 1 so I'm loosing the will and just want to bottom the thing out now.

any bright sparks able to have an idea what's up?

 

[thelarkbox]

Dont know your bike/system, but it sounds more 'bolt on' with a hub motor if the controller is housed in the battery base? Pics will help the ignorant like me..

Assuming the new battery and wheel motor are in fine condition and its oem control system issues giving you the headache..
the grin web site e-bikes.ca iirc has a knowledgebase of how to test articles, generally hub motors are very robust and on occasion only hall sensors (if fitted) may fail, requiring replacement.. and if a problem is usually flagged with a code on the bike display.

If so a simple control system upgrade may sort your issues out, a 15-17a KT controller with compatible display should cost circa £100
If your battery employs 'smart' coms tech however that may be a stumbling block so if your battery connects wih 2 x power terminals - great but, if you also have thin coms wires too - oh-dear.. though it sounds like you have the skills to fix that by replacing the 'smart' bms with a generic useful one..

 

[baz-r]

Battery has 4 connections all large and I'm led to believe that there is CANBUS link to the handlebar control possibly Battery.

Bike frame seems to be branded tranzx and the Battery holder and speed controller seem to be made to accommodate this folding bike frame?

Motor is a 20" wheel Tranzx R15 36v 250w brushless
Tranzx DP15 PST display on the bar
Battery is a tranzx BL21 but I can't find the information on the speed controller built into the base of the battery holder.
There's also a cadence sensor

Bike was also sold under the Evo model in a different colour and seems to be little support or knowledge of this brand here in the UK as its not common but think Europe might have it more common.

 

[cyclebuddy]

My feeling is it's an intermittent power fault - I'd focus on connections between battery, cradle, and controller. The reason the bike totally dies rather than simply blips out temporarily is that TranzX systems perform a boot cycle when switched on that takes a few seconds... it's akin to a PC/Laptop where even a temporary interruption to the power requires a restart cycle, not just reconnection of the power.

The battery and cradle contacts can spark and burn/make bad contact over time if the battery is "on" when being inserted; that might be aggravating your issue too.

Doubt it's a system fault if the diagnostics aren't showing any errors.

 

[thelarkbox]

There are loads of bikes out there and models change from year to year, a few pics of the bike, battery, sensors and handlebar display will clear up a lot.

One common problem is battery cases/cradles warp a lil with time and perhaps a less than perfect fit and bumpy rd is dislodging the battery or its coms connection, often some tape, straps or wedges can cure such issues?? battery coms checks may often occur some minutes into a trip before shutting of power if failed.

any signs of sparks or arcs on the battery terminals?? any pops n crackles when you ride preceding a failure?

It sounds like a lost power issue but if due to a battery coms issue the display would indicate that prior to shut down somehow?

any codes displayed on the lcd? before it dies, there should be a capacitor or 2 holding enough charge to keep the display lit a fraction of a second or so if its dying due to no power?

can you turn the bike back on after a failure? is any error then displayed? is it fitted with a lcd display or led display?

only 4x battery connections?? that sounds more like 2x +ve and 2x -ve terminals to me? a multimeter volt check should confirm that. but battery coms generally requires an extra 3 lil wires minimum for serial/uart afaik, but i am wading out of my depth now..

A healthy 36v battery should read close to 42v when fully charged.. Just making sure..

If not a battery connection issue and a controller issue?? see above -

 

[saneagle]

It could be that something is detecting over-current. The battery works on the other bike, so the battery is not shutting down due to a faulty sensor, overheating cell or anything like that. The problem cause must be external to the battery.

Typical causes of over-current are; Motor connector not in all the way to the marked line; damaged motor cable; faulty MOSFET in the controller; short on any of the 36v wires.

 

[baz-r]

Just to clarify the bike shuts off completely but battery is still on often with full charge. The rest of the bike is off and will not turn back on or unresponsive. Removing the battery from the bike (reboot) will get it on and everything is normal again. No warning or issues prior to it cutting out. Battery has a blade fuse and it is fine?
It's on a new 2nd battery and it's not charged the glitch

 

[thelarkbox]

Frustrating..

Any similarities between fail conditions?? does the bike cut out after X miles or when ridding up a particular hill?

#1 eliminate the possibility of battery coms, check battery terminals for voltage levels. While most systems ive read and heard about will shut off the battery via its bms when battery coms fail, its possible yours shuts off the controller?? - tho probably not?? (officially out of my depth now)..

#2 If you can replicate the problem by 'bouncing, shaking' the bike on the spot i would point you back at the battery caddy and it maintaining a connection during a bumpy ride.

#2b open the cady and check the connections from the spade terminals are solid, and the sprung terminals are bent to make good contact..

#3 eliminate controller probs that can be fixed 'easily', the link to the Grin troubleshooting guides linked above will detail checking the controller mosfets etc..

#4 re-check all cables connections and anchors to the bike, overtight cable ties have been known to slice into wires and cause shorts.

If a control system issue which seems highly likely, the sledgehammer approach and replacing/upgrading the controller/display with a known good open system would be my solution,,

 

[matthewslack]

If under warranty then you are stuck with Halfords for now. You could try the 'reject' legal tactic, as clearly not fit for purpose, but might not be quick.

If no longer under warranty, I would gently bend the contacts in the battery mount to force higher contact pressure. Easy if they are spade type terminals, not so easy with others.

I don't know Tranzx system, but symptom is exactly what happens with my Shimano when I run with a remote mounted battery and the contact block is not held in firmly enough.

 

[baz-r]

Frustrating..

Any similarities between fail conditions?? does the bike cut out after X miles or when ridding up a particular hill?

#1 eliminate the possibility of battery coms, check battery terminals for voltage levels. While most systems ive read and heard about will shut off the battery via its bms when battery coms fail, its possible yours shuts off the controller?? - tho probably not?? (officially out of my depth now)..

#2 If you can replicate the problem by 'bouncing, shaking' the bike on the spot i would point you back at the battery caddy and it maintaining a connection during a bumpy ride.

#2b open the cady and check the connections from the spade terminals are solid, and the sprung terminals are bent to make good contact..

#3 eliminate controller probs that can be fixed 'easily', the link to the Grin troubleshooting guides linked above will detail checking the controller mosfets etc..

#4 re-check all cables connections and anchors to the bike, overtight cable ties have been known to slice into wires and cause shorts.

If a control system issue which seems highly likely, the sledgehammer approach and replacing/upgrading the controller/display with a known good open system would be my solution,,

yes it is quite frustrating - no particular pattern other than never done it under high load/hills and come to think of it usually on the flat at regulated speed not and about 2miles or not at all but i did check if anything like the motor or battery was hot? nothing noted

1# was something I first looked at and both the connector and on the original and replacement battery. no signs of arcing or heat

2# no it seems to be unaffected by bumping or vibration and the bike is folding so has 20" wheels so i stick to the tarmac and usually cuts out on the flat rolling along at reasonable speed with minimal load.
2b# the speed control pcb is built directly into the caddy and has the battery connector posts mounted directly to it all in the plastic box i checked this for water ingress and the wire connections where good and there was no cracks or dry joints on the pcb? motor plug on the exterior loom looked like it wasnt fully home and was inspected and pushed back together and cable tied to stop it coming apart for safe measure

3# will have a look
4# this has been done - as i said the bike is folding and has internal wiring that looks all crammed into the main tube - i done my best to check majority of the connections

 

[thelarkbox]

??

i have even resorted to try and diagnose it myself with the LOGIX software and checking over the electrical system (im a qualified electrical and mechanical engineer including automotive tec) but the system shows no faults logged and is dead in fault condition.

Hang on a sec... not a qualified engineer here but i dabble (take things apart).. and in my very limited experience with uart/serial usb coms on state machines and soc pcb's systems, when supplied with logic level power they invariably boot up.. Is your usb cable supplying the 500ma 5v ok?? Or am i shooting wide again?? if not it may be worth checking with a known good cable next time a fault occurs, and may provide more illuminating results. ?

 

[baz-r]

??
Hang on a sec... not a qualified engineer here but i dabble (take things apart).. and in my very limited experience with uart/serial usb coms on state machines and soc pcb's systems, when supplied with logic level power they invariably boot up.. Is your usb cable supplying the 500ma 5v ok?? Or am i shooting wide again?? if not it may be worth checking with a known good cable next time a fault occurs, and may provide more illuminating results. ?

mmm i get what your saying and i don't drag around a windows based laptop seems pointless due usb to serial is built in to the DP15 display that will not turn on in fault condition to get comms. after the battery is pulled and reconnected there is no fault logs and the system is showing and operating as normal

 

[thelarkbox]

Google informs me just how proprietary your sys is after i looked up the s/w sys you referenced.. So a 'simple' controller swap isnt on the table.. And my basic understanding of generic systems may not be fully applicable.

Yeah roadside diagnosis isnt ideal. But if i understand correctly.
1) its an intermittent instant critical failure without any warning
2) the system remains in the critical fail state until power/battery is removed.
3) system recovers ok after re attaching the battery/power, and no indication of the earlier issue.

Perhaps roadside diagnosis is the only way to find more out? for one is there any voltage at the controller, No voltage would indicate the battery just shut itself down since an instruction to do so 'should'?? be logged as an exception condition.
no loose sense wires in the battery pack?

You mention the absence of error logs post failure, is there any way to increase the level of logging to a more verbose debug status?

 

[cyclebuddy]

...motor plug on the exterior loom looked like it wasnt fully home and was inspected and pushed back together and cable tied to stop it coming apart for safe measure

The TranzX DP15 display is the one without a speed display, isn't it (it shows battery level and assist level only)?

Cycling 2 miles - say 10 minutes - before the bike switches off suggests the controller isn't picking up the fact the bike is moving. If you had a speed display it would be showing "0 mph" even when moving. That movement is picked up from within the motor, so if that motor plug isn't properly connected (the pins could be bent, dirty/corroded or the plug still isn't pushed fully home) or there's a fracture in the connecting cable with a too tight cable tie that could account for the bike shutting off.

The DP27 is the equivalent TranzX display with speed that would show if that's the problem, but getting hold of one of those to try isn't so easy.

I'm not sure how the TranzX R15 rear-hub motor speed sensoring works - it may be by an internally glued magnet (which in some motors has been known to have fallen off). @saneagle probably has a better idea.

 

[saneagle]

The TranzX DP15 display is the one without a speed display, isn't it (it shows battery level and assist level only)?

Cycling 2 miles - say 10 minutes - before the bike switches off suggests the controller isn't picking up the fact the bike is moving. If you had a speed display it would be showing "0 mph" even when moving. That movement is picked up from within the motor, so if that motor plug isn't properly connected (the pins could be bent, dirty/corroded or the plug still isn't pushed fully home) or there's a fracture in the connecting cable (possibly at the fold) that could account for the bike shutting off.

The DP27 is the equivalent TranzX display with speed that would show if that's the problem, but getting hold of one of those to try isn't so easy.

I'm not sure how the TranzX R15 rear-hub motor speed sensoring works - it may be by an internally glued magnet (which in some motors has been known to have fallen off). @saneagle probably has a better idea.

I haven't looked in any of their motors, but they don't appear to be any different to any others, so I think it is possible that the speed sensor magnet might have detached; however, it doesn't really matter because Al you need to do is test the voltage on the signal (normally white) wire, if you can get a probe on it anywhere. It should pulse 5v either on or off when the wheel rotates and the bike is switched on.