Transport plan? What transport plan?

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Gross distortion and dubious assumptions there in order to fit your narrative.
Not so. If you read in depth the link I provided you would have seen it refers to motorised vehicle use, which of course includes public transport. That isn't a cycling gain and I've made the same point in my following post above.

Yes, the Dutch do infinitely more cycling than us, but as I've posted, that is changing as they are now losing the battle against the car. They will have to get a whole lot tougher on car use if they are to ultimately win that battle, something true for us too.

As I've made clear it is not all about cycling infrastructure when the attraction of the car and even public motorised transport is so strong.
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Zlatan

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Some rather disturbing but predictable points. (our energy (electricity) production requiring to be quadrupled to fully go over to EV and electrical heating. Even if an exaggeration and it only needs doubling we are in a complete shambles.
The move to EVs has always been a con. It could never work and never will on current technology but saying so just isn't acceptable.
Ask a Tesla owner out and about over Xmas.
I suspect we, ll be seeing ICE cars etc kept on road for years and years sort of along lines of Cuba 20 years ago and how it coped with import bans on vehicles. Big Fords and Chevys with Lada engines shoe horned in to keep them going.
Back street garages keeping your Fiesta going for another 30 years will be thriving. Assuming we can get Petrol that is.
What a fecking mess.

And
Screenshot_20221231_094953.jpg
This is latest C4 fully electric.
219 mile range is workable. (a 150 mile round trip with a bit in reserve? IMO that's a minimum for a workable solution)
But read guarantee.. It only guarantees 70% of that for first 100k,then it guarantees nothing. That really means at second hand (50k or so) you can only rely on 153 miles. That can't work. Drive to see either daughter, trip to coast, friends in other towns, holidays, trips out... Forget it.
And that car starts at £38k..
Who in their right mind would or could buy one. £40k or so for essentially city transport. Bonkers and utterly unworkable.
 
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Benjahmin

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Indeed. I live near Carmarthen, my nearest relative live in Birmingham, a 160 mile one way journey.
Bum squeeking range anxiety - no thanks.
 

flecc

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Indeed. I live near Carmarthen, my nearest relative live in Birmingham, a 160 mile one way journey.
Bum squeeking range anxiety - no thanks.
Scare story. I just entered Carmarthen to Birmingham into my Zap map account and the suggested route had 45 Rapid chargers along it.

A driving break for a ten minute cuppa with the C4's 100kW rapid charge rate ensures no chance of range anxiety.

Range anxiety is mainly something only ic car drivers suffer in their anti e-car imaginations. We e-car drivers don't.
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Zlatan

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Scare story. I just entered Carmarthen to Birmingham into my Zap map account and the suggested route had 45 Rapid chargers along it.

A driving break for a ten minute cuppa with the C4's 100kW rapid charge rate ensures no chance of range anxiety.

Range anxiety is mainly something only ic car drivers suffer in their anti e-car imaginations. We e-car drivers don't.
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Don't think it's as simple as that Flecc. Take my regular 75 mile trip to coast. 150 miles return.. Takes 90 mins each way. Won't need charging on way but certainly would on way home to ensure getting home. So that means adding another 30 mins to a 90 mins journey. (half hour charging near us is £20, minimum charge)
Adding 30 mins to a 90 min journey, I do perhaps 50 times a year, is at best inconvenient and question must be asked exactly why.?? Is it so much better for environment than doing journey in car doing 60 mpg?? I doubt it, taking everything into account.
Your experience of short regular journeys is poles apart from my usage. And I do journey in camper van during Summer and stay a day or two. (to save journeys) Hoe does EV replicate that? With an outlay of £80k perhaps?
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Some rather disturbing but predictable points. (our energy (electricity) production requiring to be quadrupled to fully go over to EV and electrical heating. Even if an exaggeration and it only needs doubling we are in a complete shambles.
The move to EVs has always been a con. It could never work and never will on current technology but saying so just isn't acceptable.
Ask a Tesla owner out and about over Xmas.
I suspect we, ll be seeing ICE cars etc kept on road for years and years sort of along lines of Cuba 20 years ago and how it coped with import bans on vehicles. Big Fords and Chevys with Lada engines shoe horned in to keep them going.
Back street garages keeping your Fiesta going for another 30 years will be thriving. Assuming we can get Petrol that is.
What a fecking mess.

And
View attachment 49912
This is latest C4 fully electric.
219 mile range is workable. (a 150 mile round trip with a bit in reserve? IMO that's a minimum for a workable solution)
But read guarantee.. It only guarantees 70% of that for first 100k,then it guarantees nothing. That really means at second hand (50k or so) you can only rely on 153 miles. That can't work. Drive to see either daughter, trip to coast, friends in other towns, holidays, trips out... Forget it.
And that car starts at £38k..
Who in their right mind would or could buy one. £40k or so for essentially city transport. Bonkers and utterly unworkable.
It's total BS Zlatan. Point by Point:

1) 84% of e-car owners have a fast home charger. They charge at home overnight since that is by far the cheapest way. 80% of ALL existing e-car charging is done that way.

2) Overnight this country and all others in Europe's network have so much surplus electricity they don't know what to do with it so have to shut down wind turbines etc and pay the owners compensation. That is why the current is so cheap at nights as they seek to avoid paying compensation and why all street lights are on all night just to use up some of the surplus.

3) As a result it will be many years before the e-car demand starts to trouble the supply system. For example, we have 32.7 million cars in this country. We are struggling to replace them at 1.5 millions a year, so it will take at least 15 years to even replace half our cars. By then Hinckley Point and Sizewell C new nuclear power stations will be up and running and we will have far more wind turbines already planned.

4) V to G is coming, (Vehicle to Grid), already up and running in Denmark and with trials here. With that, cars charged overnight with cheap current and not in use supply current to the grid at peak times for higher prices. The profit earned is deducted from one's monthly electricity bill. Most cars stand idle the majority of their lives, either at home or at work.

5) The anti brigade, including you, present an entirely lop-sided view. You complain of circa 200 mile range but don't mention the ultra rapid charge rate on the newer e-cars for owners who need it. How is adding 100 to 150 miles of range in five minutes much different from filling with ic fuel? Where is the problem? You drive for 150 to 200 miles, stop for a coffee break and then carry on driving. It's just a little different from what you have been used to, but still a huge advance on every ten miles changing the team of horses pulling the coach. So keep a sense of perspective, ic car or e-car, both are highly convenient ways of travelling large distances.

6) For essential climate change reasons old ic cars will not be kept going indefinitely, it will be the opposite. Scrappage schemes will become compulsory to get them off the roads. That has already been happening as the charges for keeping non-compliant cars on the road force it in Greater London. As history shows, what we get today, you get tomorrow.

7) Yes, e-cars and their batteries are very expensive, often more than they need be. As I've explained at length previously, that is deliberate since it suits both the manufacturers and governments. The makers are fed up with loss making small cars so with government encouragement are turning to only higher end models. Which fits exactly what governments want for blindingly obvious reasons, far less of us able to afford being car owners.

We will still have car availability. Taxis, local short term hires, club cars etc, even automated shuttle cars. All these already exist on a small scale, but they will become very much more common. I've already been seeing Zip Cars round here.

So yes, things will increasingly become different as they've been doing all your life, but change happens and we just have to accept it. We'll all be dead soon anyway so what's the big deal?
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soundwave

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WheezyRider

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Not so. If you read in depth the link I provided you would have seen it refers to motorised vehicle use, which of course includes public transport. That isn't a cycling gain and I've made the same point in my following post above.

Yes, the Dutch do infinitely more cycling than us, but as I've posted, that is changing as they are now losing the battle against the car. They will have to get a whole lot tougher on car use if they are to ultimately win that battle, something true for us too.

As I've made clear it is not all about cycling infrastructure when the attraction of the car and even public motorised transport is so strong.
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The link was an interesting read, but light on up to date references for source material. Seems not so easy to find up to date info on vehicle use in NL

I did find this:


Which shows a reduction for 2019/2020, but of course we know why that might be different to a normal year and there isn't anything from 2020 on. So we'll have to see how things pan out.

I think the distinction also needs to be made between car use in and out of built up areas. Driving in a built up area is an anti social activity and I think the Dutch have got a much better grip than most on building a pleasant urban environment that is not so car centric. I also don't think it is a loss if people chose to use public transport over cycling. If it means fewer cars on the road doing unnecessary journeys, that's got to be a win.

Saw this today, thought it would make you smile:

 
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WheezyRider

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Don't think it's as simple as that Flecc. Take my regular 75 mile trip to coast. 150 miles return.. Takes 90 mins each way. Won't need charging on way but certainly would on way home to ensure getting home. So that means adding another 30 mins to a 90 mins journey. (half hour charging near us is £20, minimum charge)
Adding 30 mins to a 90 min journey, I do perhaps 50 times a year, is at best inconvenient and question must be asked exactly why.?? Is it so much better for environment than doing journey in car doing 60 mpg?? I doubt it, taking everything into account.
Your experience of short regular journeys is poles apart from my usage. And I do journey in camper van during Summer and stay a day or two. (to save journeys) Hoe does EV replicate that? With an outlay of £80k perhaps?
I can see your point, a car with a range of 200 miles (and probably quite a bit less in the real world) does not seem very attractive. If I am driving 1000 miles, which I have to do a few times a year, I'd have to stop at least 5 times. Although, how often do you drive 200 miles in a single trip? Most car trips are usually 5 miles or less. These days I rarely use the car apart from a few times a month when I have to go long distance, or I have to shift a big load.

I think over time there will be more chargers, battery range will increase and also speed of charging. But it doesn't appeal to me at the moment, EVs are still in the early adopter phase (which is why it is disappointing that we did not start properly much earlier). Maybe in 5 to 10 years, when there is a decent second hand market in EVs, it might be more appealing.

I do worry about grid and generation capacity. If we are made to move away from gas and heating is electric (even if heat pump based) will a couple of nuclear stations be enough and will they be ready in time?
 
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soundwave

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you can get some super chargers that can do 350kw problem is there are not many cars that can charge that fast if any in the uk bar million quid super cars.

but constant charging at that rate will lower the life of the batt as id rather charge my bike batt at 2 amps than the 4a one it comes with but it can do 6a if i got that charger.


Today there are an estimated 620,000 electric cars on the road in the UK and 440,000 plug-in hybrids (PHEVs).


they need to start converting lamp posts to charging ports
 

flecc

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The Tories are onto a loser with those attitudes in Greater London. Even in the outskirts where I live that is true. Historically Croydon was a firmly Tory part of Surrey, but resentfully became part of the Greater London. Over the years since the bulk of it, Croydon Central, changed to being a marginal, with a balance of power only a hundred or so of votes each way. For example with Tory blue eyed boy Gavin Barlow seven years ago with a 165 majority.

But in the 2017 GE in a massive swing we voted in a new MP for labour, Sarah Jones with an over 10,000 majority, a huge shock in such a narrow marginal. And in the 2019 GE we actually increased that labour majority further,

Of the three Croydon seats, only the semi rural Croydon South's Chris Philp is Tory, but he's blotted his copy book, being responsible for the budget detail in the disastrous Liz Truss brief stay and is widely believed to be likely to lose his seat next time.

I do worry about grid and generation capacity. If we are made to move away from gas and heating is electric (even if heat pump based) will a couple of nuclear stations be enough and will they be ready in time?
For electric central heating, true, but it isn't a worry for e-car charging. I repeat what I posted above, 80% of all e-car charging is overnight on home chargers, of course because that is very much cheaper. And overnight current is in abundance and will remain so indefinitely.

Even as the fleet increases and more e-car owners don't have a home charger, the lamp post chargers and the like which they will be using will be overnight charging, as the existing thousands of them already do. Intelligent charge time switching is already being planned too, controlled by availability.
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flecc

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they need to start converting lamp posts to charging ports
Like so many you are already far behind on what has happening. Ubitricity alone have already provided over 6000 lamp post charge points in London so far.

They are going in elswhere too, where they are needed. No point in installing them where most have drives and can have cheap home chargers, or where few even have e-cars.
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soundwave

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problem is a few thousand more every year is going to take decades to install at that rate :rolleyes:

over half the houses down our road has no parking same as ours but you try get permission to put a drive on ur council house not going to happen.

the guy over from us bought his council house bricked it up as thought he could get the grass taken up so could drive his car/van on his drive and not going to happen even tho he paid for it to be done so just drives it over the grass on to his new drive.

we did have concreate blocks to stop that but had to be removed but imo he could wake up one morning and find his car and van blocked in and need a Crain to lift them over back on to the road lol
 

flecc

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problem is a few thousand more every year is going to take decades to install at that rate :rolleyes:
Once again you are not looking at the whole picture. Charge points are going in at a huge rate at all manner of places, supermarkets, gyms, health centres, cinemas, coffee shops, drive through burger joints etc. Even many work places are providing them.

Increasingly in the future, charging will be done intermittently wherever we stop for other reasons, taking on a bit of charge each time. We'll do that since that type of charging is often very cheap or even free as a loss leader to attract business.

It's that complex combination of ways to charge whenever the car is standing still for a little while that will be the future,

Everyone needs to stop thinking in ic car terms. The e-car world is already, and will increasingly be, different in every way,

It will work perfectly without any problems. For well over 600,000 of us in this country alone it already is. Why else would we say we will never change back to an ic car?
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soundwave

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It will work perfectly without any problems. For well over 600,000 of us in this country alone it already is. Why else do we say we will never change back to an ic car?

because that is what the corporations want it is all about profit and control the green agenda just supports what they want.

at the end of the day it will just be more expensive to own a electric car so most wont be able to buy one which is also what they want and 15 min city's.



so the future will be a technocratic hell hole and under total control unless you are rich enough and still fly around in private jets and helicopters.

china has the most electric cars ect in the world and what do they use to charge them coal and thats not going to change any time soon and they still need oil to make my robots :p
 
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jonathan.agnew

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It will work perfectly without any problems. For well over 600,000 of us in this country alone it already is. Why else do we say we will never change back to an ic car?

because that is what the corporations want it is all about profit and control the green agenda just supports what they want.

at the end of the day it will just be more expensive to own a electric car so most wont be able to buy one which is also what they want and 15 min city's.



so the future will be a technocratic hell hole and under total control unless you are rich enough and still fly around in private jets and helicopters.

china has the most electric cars ect in the world and what do they use to charge them coal and thats not going to change any time soon and they still need oil to make my robots :p
Most representatives at COP lobbyists of oil producing countries watering down green agenda
So green not quite what industry want. But it's been ever thus. I suggest moving somewhere smaller, warmer (calabria, curacao) to escape olympic levels of government funded corporate exploitation in say uk
 
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soundwave

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flecc

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He's yet another idiot who just doesn't understand that there is an abundance of electrcity at night. Always has been, always will be, and it's when most e-car charging takes place.

Spare me the Homer Simpsons.
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soundwave

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we got so much available they put 2 coal powerd station's on standby lol.

just think if 70 million ppl got home from work and put there phone laptop and car on charge for 4-5 hrs the system would collapse.

you would think in au they would be on it with solar power with all the sun they get but nope.

we need more nuke power ststions and lamp post chargers like china.

49913

and my fkn d key just broke
DSC_0001.JPG
 

flecc

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we got so much available they put 2 coal powerd station's on standby lol.
When will it penetrate?

That is for when the demand is there, daytime and evening. That isn't when most are in bed asleep, factories shut, supermarkets closed, trains not running.

Then all the current they would have been using is spare and going begging at very low prices to try to get rid of it.

Coal fired makes the surplus even more certain.
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