Transport Minster - new cycling policy?

[Zlatan]

Whom here is blaming drivers for all cycling deaths and injuries? Whom here has said that cycling is not dangerous? Whom here has not said said that cycling infrastructure needs to improve. Just whom is arguing with you on these points. You are doing a great job of regurgitating statistics but other than beating the "cyclists must be trained drum" I read no other contributions to this thread. You have not made one point or suggestion on how to prevent incidents that invovle negligent drivers. In my opinion, negligent use of a motor vehicle is the major cause of all incidents involving vunerable road users.

Would training of cyclists be a bad thing, no. An expensive program to implement with limited effect it would be as it would offer little protection from negligent road users. Again, inspite of repeated request for your input on what this cycle training should include, you have chosen to ingnore.

Training children on road safety up to and at the age of 12. It is a program that teaches basic traffic laws and how to hopefully not get run over. The vast majority of cyclist that commute and get killed and injured know those basic rules just from reaching the age they are. Most operate vehicles themselves. Again, without three paragraphs of statistics, would you please state what kind of training for cyclist will help then survive sharing the road with vehicles.

I,m not a cyclist so I have not got a clue but it seems some seem capable of cycling for years without incident or injury..perhaps your question should be aimed at them..
And you contradicting some others on here. You accept cycling is dangerous, Flecc offers stats suggesting otherwise. I would not dream of cycling through London, if I did it would be a nightmare,
What I am saying is yes drivers need to be more aware etc etc but cyclists as a body should take situation into hand and accept some responsibility especially with regard to training.
Are you really trying to tell me folk such as flecc could not offer new cyclists advice, training. If you are I don't believe you.
At the moment anybody of any age even over drink driving limit ( police have to demonstrate cyclists are intoxicated and can not demand breath/ blood tests) with zero training or experience can cycle through London. That is sheer barmy, no matter how you look at at.

 

[flecc]

And you contradicting some others on here. You accept cycling is dangerous, Flecc offers stats suggesting otherwise. I would not dream of cycling through London, if I did it would be a

The missing word is potentially. In other words cycling can be dangerous, but as my record shows, need not be. For me it isn't dangerous at all and in 70 years never has been.

I would not dream of cycling through London, if I did it would be a nightmare,

There are many who believe as you do, so they don't cycle in London. So there's no problem in their respect and even if offered training, they wouldn't take it.

What I am saying is yes drivers need to be more aware etc etc but cyclists as a body should take situation into hand and accept some responsibility.

I agree, but not as a body, they should take responsibility individually. The cyclist can take the personal actions that maximise their safety, and by their behaviour they can also influence how others behave on the roads.

At the moment anybody of any age even over drink driving limit ( police have to demonstrate cyclists are intoxicated and can not demand breath/ blood tests) with zero training or experience can cycle through London. That is sheer barmy, no matter how you look at at.

Cycling is hardly any different from being a pedestrian, and we don't train them. Drunks don't cycle at high speeds, nor do young children, in fact most unskilled cyclists proceed at under 18 mph and often very much slower. E-bike assistance is limited to circa 15 mph. The average fit person can run at 18 mph and I've seen many in London running at that for various purposes such as catching a bus or escaping a police officer or store security man.

The fortunate thing is that we have self adjusting safety built in. When we are fairly young and very fit we can run and cycle at speeds suited to our youthful quick reactions, acute eyesight and sharp hearing.

As we age we are less fit and so less capable of cycling or running as fast, so our travel speeds are commensurate with the decline in our abilities.

As ever nature knows best.
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[Danidl]

Whom here has said that cycling is not dangerous?
Actually I have said so and provided the statistics to back it up. 113 dead as compared to 3 times that in drowning, walking, 6 times that in motorbiking and 9 times that in cars.
Cycling is not a hazardous activity.
There are occasions and circumstances which move it into a highly hazardous activity, high speed, greasy or icy roads, lack of lighting, overtaking on the inside, breaking traffic lights and combinations of same. Is common sense a rare commodity?

 

[Emo Rider]

I,m not a cyclist so I have not got a clue but it seems some seem capable of cycling for years without incident or injury..perhaps your question should be aimed at them..
And you contradicting some others on here. You accept cycling is dangerous, Flecc offers stats suggesting otherwise. I would not dream of cycling through London, if I did it would be a nightmare,
What I am saying is yes drivers need to be more aware etc etc but cyclists as a body should take situation into hand and accept some responsibility especially with regard to training.
Are you really trying to tell me folk such as flecc could not offer new cyclists advice, training. If you are I don't believe you.
At the moment anybody of any age even over drink driving limit ( police have to demonstrate cyclists are intoxicated and can not demand breath/ blood tests) with zero training or experience can cycle through London. That is sheer barmy, no matter how you look at at.

You're not a cyclist, this speaks volumes about your input so far. You really don't have anything to say to those of us that are. Especially those that risk life and limb daily. If I could pick and choose where I travel, I too could ride for years without incident. What happened to me two weeks ago was certainly no fault of mine. It was unavoidable on my part as one should be able to expect other road users to obey the rules. They do not. I would say there is also a bit of good luck in not having an incident happen.

Flecc, did you say cycling is not dangerous? Did I miss that? What I took
from what he posted is that things are getting better in certain areas. This is largely due to improved cycling infrastructure and a large enforcement effort directed towards both cyclist and drivers. Training for both? Call it what you wish but this is what is needed everywhere.

No agument here about training being benificial but I am repeating myself. Perhaps if you had some experience or qualification you could put on a course yourself. If you feel this strongly about it get on your bike, learn, ask flecc for advice, ask me, and then start your own training program. Perhaps this is where it could start.

 

[Zlatan]

So Emo
You willingly ( or perhaps have to?) take part in an activity where you say yourself
" risk life and limb" but you dont accept that your ability to avoid injury is through your own skill and or understanding of what you are doing..Its just luck ? I don't believe so.
Now lets assume you were riding right behind one of those 6 ladies killed by ( I believe) dumper trucks turning left... In that same scenario you would not have bern injured?? If its complete random why was it 6 females ? What action would you have taken ? How early would you have spotted the danger ? What would you have done ?
Had you had chance to speak to anyone of those ladies the day before , knowing the situation they would find themselves in, would you be unable to offer life saving advice ?
I suspect an experienced rider would know exactly what to tell them ? But perhaps not ? Is it just luck or lack of it? If its just luck I,d stop riding if I were you.
My point is the survival techniques some cyclists seem to have should part of an enforced curriculum for city cyclists. What advice would you give your kids before cycling through London? Would you let them just buy a bike and pedal through the City centre. The authorities are happy to let them.

 

[Emo Rider]

So Emo
You willingly ( or perhaps have to?) take part in an activity where you say yourself
" risk life and limb" but you dont accept that your ability to avoid injury is through your own skill and or understanding of what you are doing..Its just luck ? I don't believe so.
Now lets assume you were riding right behind one of those 6 ladies killed by ( I believe) dumper trucks turning left... In that same scenario you would not have bern injured?? If its complete random why was it 6 females ? What action would you have taken ? How early would you have spotted the danger ? What would you have done ?
Had you had chance to speak to anyone of those ladies the day before , knowing the situation they would find themselves in, would you be unable to offer life saving advice ?
I suspect an experienced rider would know exactly what to tell them ? But perhaps not ? Is it just luck or lack of it? If its just luck I,d stop riding if I were you.
My point is the survival techniques some cyclists seem to have should part of an enforced curriculum for city cyclists. What advice would you give your kids before cycling through London? Would you let them just buy a bike and pedal through the City centre. The authorities are happy to let them.

Do you even read what people write? Let me rephrase that, could you understand what people are writing? Go back and read all the posts I wrote. You missed the parts where I said training was a good idea. You have chosen to ingnore the fact that I was involved in an incident recently that was out of my control inspite of my experience. All the training in the world will not prevent the actions of those that chose unsafe behavior. I was unlucky, you know, the opposite of lucky.

In a career spanning 4 decades, I worked for a company in which safety was the number one priority. Safety training was thorough and second to none. Yet certain employees chose to ignore the rules put themselves and others at risk. To answer you question about how I could have helped these 6 ladies, go back and reread this paragraph from the beginning until you understand what I am trying to say.

In everyone of those 6 fatalities there were two people involved. The driver and the cyclists. Who did what wrong? Who did what was right? I was not there. I do not know the details. Your challenge to me is unfair and uncalled
for, in fact rude and offensive.

Where all the cyclists careless? Did all the truckers overtake and left hook the cyclist (violation of highway code 182)? You tell me. One thing I can tell you for sure is that people that know the rules do not necessarily follow them. All the training in the world will not prevent stupidly.

I am going to work tomorrow on my bike. I'll take my chances. Perhaps I'll
be lucky, perhaps not.

 

[Zlatan]

Emo
I was not being offensive, if you interprted it as so apologies.
Seriously, good luck.
I think you are missing my point .

 

[anotherkiwi]

This is the core of the problem.

Basically car drivers have been spoilt ever since the abolition of the law requiring a man with a flag walking in front of a car. Of course I'm not advocating that returns, but drawing attention to the way in which progress has always suited the driver most.
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Awww!! You ruined it! here I was dreaming of a Bugatti Veyron with a man with a red flag walking in front of it...

 

[anotherkiwi]

Emo
I was not being offensive, if you interprted it as so apologies.
Seriously, good luck.
I think you are missing my point .

No. Your "logic" is flawed that is all. Don't worry, at the moment flawed logic is very fashionable!

 

[flecc]

why was it 6 females ?

This is well understood, it's because female cyclists are more inclined to obey the rules.

At red traffic lights they stop at the white line and don't jump the lights, which places them neatly in the blind spot at the left of a truck cab. If the truck turns left there can be a consequence.

In contrast male cyclists are more likely to stop ahead of the white line to give them a head start, or even to jump the lights. Males also seem to have taken all the publicity about the left turn truck risk to heart and acted upon it, but females have too often apparently failed to learn.

One strange phenomenon is the way female cyclists don't always seem aware of left turn flashing indicators on trucks and what they mean. This has been video'd by CCTV more than once, one a fatality, and on another occasion described by numerous witnesses on the pavement who saw that other fatality.
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[flecc]

Awww!! You ruined it! here I was dreaming of a Bugatti Veyron with a man with a red flag walking in front of it...

Ettore Bugatti was a Frenchman of course, so it would have to be a blue flag. Red is Italy's race car colour.
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[anotherkiwi]

Come on with a name like that you know he was Italian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Bugatti

And in Italy it is the city that dictates the makers colour so Ferrari is yellow, Alfa Romeo is red and so on. The national colours came much later.

 

[flecc]

Come on with a name like that you know he was Italian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Bugatti

And in Italy it is the city that dictates the makers colour so Ferrari is yellow, Alfa Romeo is red and so on. The national colours came much later.

Yes, but he adopted France like some of my own Italian family, and his cars were all French.

With Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Maserati and Lancia all being Fiat now, city colours can no longer be applied.

If the flag walker was reintroduced now, blue would be the correct national one for the Bugatti cars. But of course there's no need for men walking in front with flags in France, the farmers carry out the road blocking function.
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[anotherkiwi]

So I have had Christmas with some Dutch people and asked about the cyclists who die without being in a accident with anyone else and the answer was: we have so many older cyclists they probably died of a heart attack while on their bike. The person wasn't sure if that is the official reason, it was his educated guest.

 

[flecc]

So I have had Christmas with some Dutch people and asked about the cyclists who die without being in a accident with anyone else and the answer was: we have so many older cyclists they probably died of a heart attack while on their bike. The person wasn't sure if that is the official reason, it was his educated guest.

While that's possible and I know of two cases in Britain in my lifetime, it seems unlikely to be a major factor in so many deaths. Approximately 80 every year. And the Dutch are not stupid, if that were the case they would surely have said as much in the government study, which was specifically about the causes of their cycling deaths.
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[shemozzle999]

Another one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-38534069