Torque Sensor bike with Panieers?

Hi everyone, been looking over the huge amount of ebikes there are out there and I've managed to narrow down roughly what I want. However I cannot for the life of me find one that manges to tick all the boxes.

I'm looking for a bike that:

• Is torque sensor controlled (I want to still gain a bit of excersize over my 8 mile commute, but to be helped out on two hills that make it a misery on a regular bike)
  
• That has, or is possible to have, a pannier rack with proper mud guards.
  
• is not more that £1800
  
• Has more than 3 gears (I'd like to believe I can pedal the thing well if my battery dies/I take the battery off).
  

Any suggestions?

Is this a setup?

What's the type of pedal sensor got to do with how much you want to pedal?

If you're genuine, welcome to the forum.

Is this a setup?

 

What's the type of pedal sensor got to do with how much you want to pedal?

 

If you're genuine, welcome to the forum.

Dave, I think that torque sensors absolutely give a natural cycling feel and make you put in the effort if you want to get the motor assisting to its maximum. Well, that's my experience of riding bikes with torque sensors anyway. By contrast, speed / rotation sensors encourage 'lazy' cycling giving maximum assist with little effort. Obviously it's still possible to put in a lot of effort and adjust the motor input using other controls, but I would agree with the original poster that a torque sensor would at least encourage more input from the rider.

Is this a setup?

 

What's the type of pedal sensor got to do with how much you want to pedal?

 

If you're genuine, welcome to the forum.

Oh sorry, I should have said I have yet to get an ebike at all yet so, going from what I've been reading so far on various forums and the like, a torque sensor seemed like the option to rely purely on the motor to do the work.

Basicly I want to stay fit but not have to do with a few busy road hills (breathing in all that pollution whilst trying to haul myself up the hill seems kind of counter productive...). But if i've misunderstood what the different sensors will give then I'm sorry and am happy to get some good advice (hence posting here).

I also forgot to add that I'd really rather prefer a crossbar bike than a step through (its what im used to and I prefer the leaning forward to the sit up and beg).

If you want to pedal harder, you turn the power down. That's nothing to do with the type of pedal sensor.

Ok that makes sense, but now I'm really confused about the difference between sensor types.

Ok that makes sense, but now I'm really confused about the difference between sensor types.

You should try both out. In my opinion they feel completely different. In my experience, most people who currently ride unpowered bikes think a torque sensor gives a much more natural cycling feel, the more effort you put in, the more boost you get. This is not how other sensors work where there is no connection between your input and the motor assist. That is of course good for some and would be just what they want. I ride bikes with various types of sensors (and a throttle only bike) and the different riding characteristics are marked and very noticeable. These characteristics effect the way that you ride so I wouldn't be too quick to say that it is of no significance.

Definitely try several out types out - hub powered bike with torque sensor, crank drive with torque sensor and a bike without a torque sensor.

If you want a bargain torque sensor bike this is hard to beat £999 and made in Germany

D Cycle Discovery 7

http://www.ebco-ebikes.co.uk/products-page/ebco/d-cycle-discovery-7/

Or if you want the most reliable high end crank drive we have several Bosch powered bikes with mudguards and racks for £1800 or less. Also 2 year guarantee on battery (same as all other high end crank drives).

Plus our unrivalled guarantee - offer of a loan bike if you have a problem which can not be fixed remotely and free collection!

Have fun trying ebikes!

David

The pedal sensor alone is not enough to determine how the bike gives power. There's a complete system of sensor, controller, user control panel and motor. The most important factor is the software in the controller.

There's two common systems:

Kalkhoff Impulse, Bosch and Panasonic use a torque multiplication system where the pedal torque is muliplied by selectable amounts. The advantage is that you can control the power with your feet like on an unpowered ike, but you get the disadvantages that you have to pedal hard to get high power and you can't get power without pedalling.

Many other bikes use speed control, where the sensor telss the controller when you're pedalling, whereupon the controller attempts to maintain a speed fixed by the user control panel. This has the disadvantage that you can't control the power at very low speed, but the advantage is that you get much better control over the power that you want to give at any other speed. For instance, if your control panel was set to level 2 (say 10 mph), you'd be pedalling on your own above that speed, but as you slow down past 10mph, the controller will start to feed in more power. The slower you go, the more power the controller gives as you struggle up the hill. These systems also usually have provision for a throttle, which enables you to adjust the target speed to anything you want.The throttle has many advantages. If you fall off the bike and injure your knee, you can still get home. If your crank comes loose or you get a crick in your knee or cramp, you can keep going. Pulling away from a stop is a lot easier when crossing main roads or doing steep hill-starts.

There's loads of other systems too that are anywhere between the two and the systems I described above are actually more sophisticated than I described. I simplified them. They all work, and there's times when any of them have advantages. I can't see that either system gives a reason to choose one bike over another, except if you need a throttle for whatever reason.

Normally, people come on the forum and say how far and fast they want to go, how hard they want to pedal/how (un)fit they are, how much they want to spend and what their special needs are.

You can fit mudguards and a rack to virtually any bike.

If someone comes on the forum and says that they don't know anything about electric bikes, but they want one that's yellow and black, full suspension, about a 400wH frame-mounted battery, 27.5" wheels, for a budget of £3700. I'd be very suspicious that they worked for Wiggle.

If someone comes on the forum and says that they don't know anything about electric bikes, but they want one that's yellow and black, full suspension, about a 400wH frame-mounted battery, 27.5" wheels, for a budget of £3700. I'd be very suspicious that they worked for Wiggle.

I'm really not sure how to "prove" myself to you. But I post on this forum as I had seen that your replys, generally have been useful and to the point with most people. I'm sorry I've cause susspition in you, but I'm really not sure what I would gain by proving myself or even trying to convince you that I don't work for a company related to bikes. Or even what I would be gaining if I did?

I'm a sound engineer/IT tech so generally have a fairly good knowledge of power, not so much motors (Only motors I ever see are large 3 phase rigging motors). So I'm not completely ignorant. If what I asked was too specific its only because i've done a bit of research. I did vist the e-bikesdirect store and the guy there pointed me towards the moment upstart. Which looks like a good bike, but I didn't really like the idea of just two gears... it's too different from what i'm used to.

For details of what I want compare with the normal questions. I have 8 miles to commute, 1 largish long hill which is on the A3 Rohehampton vale and also the hill and one at the Ham gate to Richmond park. I don't want to have to deal with these everyday along side wizzing car pollution from the A3, but actually still want to keep reasonably fit as I have a desk job now. I'd also like something thats not going to soak me when I ride everyday (so mud guards) and so I dont have to have my bag round my neck ever day (panniers). I've only ever ridden standard bikes so I don't want something thats too much of a shock to the system and makes me feel lazy

Can you recommend me a selection of bikes?

Also thank you to eveyone that's recommended me a bike so far, they're towards the top of my budget so I'm going to have to conciser this a bit more carefully.

I'd be very suspicious that they worked for Wiggle.

Also I googled Wiggle and I can't for life of me see any electric bikes on there? Why would I work for them and come on a ebike forum? I'm sure I'm missing something here... Sorry if I've brought up something. I genuinely just wanted some help and this seemed like a forum with a lot of active and people in the know.

Welcome to the forum!

Please don't feel put off, or that you have to justify yourself...as a newcomer you are very welcome to post and ask any questions you feel are relevant.

There are many members on Pedelecs that will be able to give you sound advice on Electric bikes for less than £1800.

I'm really not sure how to "prove" myself to you. But I post on this forum as I had seen that your replys, generally have been useful and to the point with most people. I'm sorry I've cause susspition in you, but I'm really not sure what I would gain by proving myself or even trying to convince you that I don't work for a company related to bikes. Or even what I would be gaining if I did?

 

I'm a sound engineer/IT tech so generally have a fairly good knowledge of power, not so much motors (Only motors I ever see are large 3 phase rigging motors). So I'm not completely ignorant. If what I asked was too specific its only because i've done a bit of research. I did vist the e-bikesdirect store and the guy there pointed me towards the moment upstart. Which looks like a good bike, but I didn't really like the idea of just two gears... it's too different from what i'm used to.

 

For details of what I want compare with the normal questions. I have 8 miles to commute, 1 largish long hill which is on the A3 Rohehampton vale and also the hill and one at the Ham gate to Richmond park. I don't want to have to deal with these everyday along side wizzing car pollution from the A3, but actually still want to keep reasonably fit as I have a desk job now. I'd also like something thats not going to soak me when I ride everyday (so mud guards) and so I dont have to have my bag round my neck ever day (panniers). I've only ever ridden standard bikes so I don't want something thats too much of a shock to the system and makes me feel lazy

 

Can you recommend me a selection of bikes?

 

Also thank you to eveyone that's recommended me a bike so far, they're towards the top of my budget so I'm going to have to conciser this a bit more carefully.

Hi, you appear to live near Richmond so it may be worth visiting these people in Hampton Wick:

http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes.html

My mistake, theres a few that are like £5000+... screw that £1800 is still way too much for me. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, I thought woosh was the average for a ebike, but I'm guessing thats more like the lower end.

I don't know. Woosh brought in some very innovative products. The only obvious point is they sell direct, so their prices are lower for that reason.

Their CD range have the motor neatly 'tucked in' - neatest in fact for any crank drive. Their Big Bear is also very recommendable for heavy riders. Their Sport TS may even be what you want. It has a XOFO motor with torque sensor built inside. I've tried it. Pretty good, even feels more natural than my BBS01 kit without throttle. Upgrade the disc brakes to a pair of Avid Elixir, fit some plastic mudguards and you have a pretty good light weight bike. The torque sensor makes the brake sensors unnecessary.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/ts/ts3-800.jpg

Edited May 3, 201411 yr by trex

The torque sensor makes the brake sensors unnecessary.

So, with a torque sensor, the bike does not need e-brakes or HWBS? So hydraulic brakes can be fit, even without those switches? Interesting, especially for us continental-europeans for which throttle is a forbidden fruit.

Wait! From the woosh webpage, it says:

"

• Motor: lightweight XOFO brushless rear hub motor rated 250W
  
• Sensors: torque and speed sensors built inside motor housing
  

"

Can I understand from that that XOFO sells a rear hub motor (hopefully for cassette), having a torque sensor, not needing to open the BB to fit a PAS, no e-brakes, and with no need to have a throttle since the torque sensor is good enough for that????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I want that for my Rockrider 8.1!

Edit: no cassette http://www.xofomotor.com/display.asp?id=782

Edited May 4, 201411 yr by Arbol

the motor in the Woosh Sport TS is the XFK with freewheel and torque sensor.

XOFO make the same with cassette, you only have to specify it.

The only problem is low power. The XFK has the range of 250W-350W, same as the XF08C from MXUS (both companies abbreviate their company name to XOFO, very confusing) the XFV is much better, 250W-500W, that means both are EN15194 certified but the XFV is much better at climbing hills (same specs as 8-Fun BPM). XOFO don't put the torque sensor in the XFV.

When you have torque sensor, brake cut-out sensor is not required for EN15194. Bosch bikes don't have brake sensors.

http://www.szxfmotor.com/display.asp?id=783

Edited May 4, 201411 yr by trex

So, with a torque sensor, the bike does not need e-brakes or HWBS? So hydraulic brakes can be fit, even without those switches? Interesting, especially for us continental-europeans for which throttle is a forbidden fruit.

The rule is

"assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch."

What type of sensor you have is irrelevant. New pedal speed sensors and faster software in the controllers makes that possible without a torque sensor. The Xiongda has a very fast cut-off time. 15mph = 6.7 m/s, so it would need to cut off in about 0.3 secs, which I think it does.

the motor in the Woosh Sport TS is the XFK with freewheel and torque sensor.

XOFO make the same with cassette, you only have to specify it.

The only problem is low power. The XFK has the range of 250W-350W, same as the XF08C from MXUS (both companies abbreviate their company name to XOFO, very confusing) the XFV is much better, 250W-500W, that means both are EN15194 certified but the XFV is much better at climbing hills (same specs as 8-Fun BPM). XOFO don't put the torque sensor in the XFV.

When you have torque sensor, brake cut-out sensor is not required for EN15194. Bosch bikes don't have brake sensors.

http://www.szxfmotor.com/display.asp?id=783

trex, I am a complete ignorant about xofo products, but when I check their webpage, it looks like from the description, the Woosh Sport TS uses the XFL motor:

http://www.xofomotor.com/display.asp?id=782

Not the XFK:

http://www.xofomotor.com/display.asp?id=783

I believe that because the XFL has torque sensor built in, while the XFK has not.

Also, the Woosh has 6 speed rear, and it seems they are using the typical black freewheels, not the traditional silver cassettes. I believe it would be hard to find a 6 speed cassette. So, this apparently rules out the XFK, while the XFL, allowing freewheels, seems logically suited to that.

I believe K means cassette for xofo.

Then, the XF-V is more powerful, I agree (as well as their XF-V(K) cassette version). But it looks like that for complying with European standards, a XFL is great, with no need of throttle, no need of PAS, no need of e-brakes, hydraulic brakes then fit easily ... probably I only miss the XFL(K) version.

The rule is

"assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch."

What type of sensor you have is irrelevant. New pedal speed sensors and faster software in the controllers makes that possible without a torque sensor. The Xiongda has a very fast cut-off time. 15mph = 6.7 m/s, so it would need to cut off in about 0.3 secs, which I think it does.

Interesting, d8veh. So you would dare to install a Xiongda without any kind of e-brakes? BTW, I do not recall having read that your 5 pound bike has the special switches for hydraulic disc brakes, is it possible you are running the Xiongda without any kind of e-brakes?

Interesting, d8veh. So you would dare to install a Xiongda without any kind of e-brakes?

I don't have them on my test bike, though there's always the possibility that the throttle could get damaged and stay on, for which brake cut-offs are very useful.

The Woosh bike does indeed have a cassette motor.