Torq Problem: Offset front wheel - sticking vee brake - fork shudder
- Thread starter mithril
- Start date
Reply to Jaytee
I've now added details on judder and headstock adjustment into the Bike page on my site as you suggested:
http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/bike.html
I've now added details on judder and headstock adjustment into the Bike page on my site as you suggested:
http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/bike.html
Thank you Ken for your response and explanation. It all makes sense now. My bike was supplied with the Diacompe SE8 levers. Are you saying that they should be replaced with your proposed alternative? Will the replacements be easy to fit, bearing in mind the electrical cut-out contacts etc.? Do you propose that Owners fit them ourselves, or have you made special arrangements for this?
Yes, I'll do that if necessary Jaytee. Meanwhile, pending Ken's reply, the cutout cables are integral to the levers, and the cables unplug just inside the base of the meter via two small nylon 2 pin plugs. Removing the large grommet under the meter shows these, and it's easy to unplug or plug these without opening the meter by using tweezers or thin snipe nose pliers. The battery should be removed before doing this as a safety precaution. The plugs can be seen on my site in the illustration here where there's further details:
http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/wiring.html#bookmark6
However, if it is to be an owner job as I suspect, I'll put a full account onsite including removal of handgrip and twistgrip from the handlebars if that's necessary with the new levers.
http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/wiring.html#bookmark6
However, if it is to be an owner job as I suspect, I'll put a full account onsite including removal of handgrip and twistgrip from the handlebars if that's necessary with the new levers.
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My Torq was delivered back to me today from 50cycles who took it back to their workshop to fix the extensive brake judder. I have not yet had the chance to fully evaluate the bike following the change of brake levers, but a short ride still showed some judder.
The replacement Tektro levers are larger and give a very solid feel to braking. The levers however, are not equipped with the electric cut-outs. Time will tell whether the change has really been effective.
50cycles have been very effective in arranging the collection, servicing and return of the bike.
The replacement Tektro levers are larger and give a very solid feel to braking. The levers however, are not equipped with the electric cut-outs. Time will tell whether the change has really been effective.
50cycles have been very effective in arranging the collection, servicing and return of the bike.
They should both work Jed, but the rear brake one on my Torq no longer does, in my case due to a fault in the circuit on the meter circuit board. Having ridden infinitely more powerful motorbikes without these for years, I'm not bothered by that. You'll see from Jaytee's post above that the new replacement levers don't have cutouts.
You can check the plug in point on the meter circuit board if you wish to see if the connectors are still in place. On latest bikes they are glued for security, but on previous production they could come unplugged. If you go to this link on my site you'll see the two white nylon plugs in the meter illustrated. There's no need for you to open the meter to check though, just sliding out the large rubber grommet enables you to see the plugs inside.
wiring
You can check the plug in point on the meter circuit board if you wish to see if the connectors are still in place. On latest bikes they are glued for security, but on previous production they could come unplugged. If you go to this link on my site you'll see the two white nylon plugs in the meter illustrated. There's no need for you to open the meter to check though, just sliding out the large rubber grommet enables you to see the plugs inside.
wiring
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Jaytee
I've finally got round to attending to the severe judder with the Diacompe SE8 brakes on my Quando front wheel. I'd been waiting to have some time for brake pad renewal on my Twist's front and was going to use that opportunity to buy a slightly different pattern of pad and try them on the Quando first.
The pattern chosen are longer since that minimises the rotational element present in judder at it's start point, the pad/rim interface. The pad material is similar to the present eZee spec, maybe a fraction softer. I would have preferred a fraction harder, but there was no point in locating an obscure source not easily accessible to others.
The outcome is that the severe judder has disappeared except for the merest trace of an initial snatch, though this seems to be reducing after just half a dozen applications. I've only just done this so a few miles could lose that as well. The Diacompe brakes remain as they were, with just a fractional reduction in the soft feel due to the longer pad having less "give".
I can't say if this will work on the Torq as mine has no judder, and the Torq wheel has a motor, a 27" rim, and two cross lacing. The Quando has no front wheel motor, 20" rim and three cross lacing. However, you can try this risk free if you wish to see if it clears the rest of your judder.
The pads are easily available, they are Clarke's Cycle Systems, carded stock, front labelled MTB V brake type, on the reverse, code number CP 510 by the bar code. They are standard stock in Halfords branches. As received, the thick collar is assembled on the inside next to the pad, and this should be reversed with the thin collar inside for the Diacompe brakes. Otherwise an easy fit. The pads have tiny F and R symbols, so ensure you put them on the right way with the F at the front and align them carefully.
If you find they bring no improvement, let me know, pop them into a jiffy bag or similar and mail them to me as my Twist's rears are nearly due for renewal, so I'll happily send you the £6.99 they'll have cost you.
I've finally got round to attending to the severe judder with the Diacompe SE8 brakes on my Quando front wheel. I'd been waiting to have some time for brake pad renewal on my Twist's front and was going to use that opportunity to buy a slightly different pattern of pad and try them on the Quando first.
The pattern chosen are longer since that minimises the rotational element present in judder at it's start point, the pad/rim interface. The pad material is similar to the present eZee spec, maybe a fraction softer. I would have preferred a fraction harder, but there was no point in locating an obscure source not easily accessible to others.
The outcome is that the severe judder has disappeared except for the merest trace of an initial snatch, though this seems to be reducing after just half a dozen applications. I've only just done this so a few miles could lose that as well. The Diacompe brakes remain as they were, with just a fractional reduction in the soft feel due to the longer pad having less "give".
I can't say if this will work on the Torq as mine has no judder, and the Torq wheel has a motor, a 27" rim, and two cross lacing. The Quando has no front wheel motor, 20" rim and three cross lacing. However, you can try this risk free if you wish to see if it clears the rest of your judder.
The pads are easily available, they are Clarke's Cycle Systems, carded stock, front labelled MTB V brake type, on the reverse, code number CP 510 by the bar code. They are standard stock in Halfords branches. As received, the thick collar is assembled on the inside next to the pad, and this should be reversed with the thin collar inside for the Diacompe brakes. Otherwise an easy fit. The pads have tiny F and R symbols, so ensure you put them on the right way with the F at the front and align them carefully.
If you find they bring no improvement, let me know, pop them into a jiffy bag or similar and mail them to me as my Twist's rears are nearly due for renewal, so I'll happily send you the £6.99 they'll have cost you.
When fitting Hydraulic brakes to the Torq I had to fit new brake levers. I cut the electric cut-offs - they seem to be an unnessary safety device given the strong spring of the throttle return. With the hydraulics I still get some brake judder which suggests there is a design flaw somwhere,
Hi PeterE
Thanks for that information, adding to an accumulation on this issue. I have an increasing suspicion that the two cross spoke lacing on the 700c rim may be playing a part in this issue, it allowing some torsional rotational motion in relation to the hub and motor mass.
That said, some good old fashioned very hard pads would almost certainly clear up the judder whatever the brake type, but the alloy rims wouldn't survive for long!
Thanks for that information, adding to an accumulation on this issue. I have an increasing suspicion that the two cross spoke lacing on the 700c rim may be playing a part in this issue, it allowing some torsional rotational motion in relation to the hub and motor mass.
That said, some good old fashioned very hard pads would almost certainly clear up the judder whatever the brake type, but the alloy rims wouldn't survive for long!
My contribution to the torq owners discussion about brake judder and gearing are as follows:
I think the brake judder is worse in the wet. I have noticed it doesn't happen on the new giant bike, which is of a broadly similar design.
50 cycles have changed the brake levers on mine but I don't believe any amount of fiddling with the brakes will sort it fully. I think that the problem lies with forks that are essentially too springy when married to the extra weight of the motor at the front. I think its potentially dangerous in terms of handling, particularly in the wet and thus should be somehow modified on all torqs sold so far, sorry guys...
My other belief is that 50% of the gears are pretty unusable except for anyone who lives in Holland. The front chainwheel is huge. I bet the designer in China lives somewhere with no hills. Thus I would say that the gearing is definitely wrong for the UK. I expect that newer torqs will resolve both these issues, but I hope that existing owners will get either a recall or a fix, especially for the brake problem. Ortherwise its a good bike.
I think the brake judder is worse in the wet. I have noticed it doesn't happen on the new giant bike, which is of a broadly similar design.
50 cycles have changed the brake levers on mine but I don't believe any amount of fiddling with the brakes will sort it fully. I think that the problem lies with forks that are essentially too springy when married to the extra weight of the motor at the front. I think its potentially dangerous in terms of handling, particularly in the wet and thus should be somehow modified on all torqs sold so far, sorry guys...
My other belief is that 50% of the gears are pretty unusable except for anyone who lives in Holland. The front chainwheel is huge. I bet the designer in China lives somewhere with no hills. Thus I would say that the gearing is definitely wrong for the UK. I expect that newer torqs will resolve both these issues, but I hope that existing owners will get either a recall or a fix, especially for the brake problem. Ortherwise its a good bike.
Though the problem is Robert that many Torq's don't suffer with any judder, indeed mine doesn't. It's original Diacompe front brake works absolutely faultlessly in every respect, It's as good as any other middle of the road V brake that I've used.
On the other hand I did suffer considerable front brake judder on the Quando with the same brakes. I've improved that to a point where it's virtually all gone by a change to a different type of pads, same rubber but a longer profile to reduce the rotational moment around the mounting bolt. It really needs a slightly harder rubber and I've indentified some better pads but have been too busy to buy and try them so far.
That said, the trigger for the judder on the latter bike is a poor rim section join. It's slightly fatter than the average width of the rim remainder, so at any grip amount makes a pinch point once per rotation. That's not uncommon on rims as they are cut from continuous strip, turned and joined. The difference is small and will wear down ro a more even dimension so not a worry.
The Torq was designed for the enthusiast cyclist user, hence that gearing which eZee acknowledge is only good for up to 1 in 10, and that for a fit and active cyclist. It's just a pity that publicity about it's power has led to that being represented as good hill climbing ability in some quarters, which is obviously not true. The bike itself is partly to blame, since it is a superb fast moderate slope climber, this seen as good hill climbing by owners in generally flat areas who mistakenly say as much.
On the other hand I did suffer considerable front brake judder on the Quando with the same brakes. I've improved that to a point where it's virtually all gone by a change to a different type of pads, same rubber but a longer profile to reduce the rotational moment around the mounting bolt. It really needs a slightly harder rubber and I've indentified some better pads but have been too busy to buy and try them so far.
That said, the trigger for the judder on the latter bike is a poor rim section join. It's slightly fatter than the average width of the rim remainder, so at any grip amount makes a pinch point once per rotation. That's not uncommon on rims as they are cut from continuous strip, turned and joined. The difference is small and will wear down ro a more even dimension so not a worry.
The Torq was designed for the enthusiast cyclist user, hence that gearing which eZee acknowledge is only good for up to 1 in 10, and that for a fit and active cyclist. It's just a pity that publicity about it's power has led to that being represented as good hill climbing ability in some quarters, which is obviously not true. The bike itself is partly to blame, since it is a superb fast moderate slope climber, this seen as good hill climbing by owners in generally flat areas who mistakenly say as much.
Hi Flecc
50 cycles has just had another go at fixing my bike problems this time with with total success. This involved me emailing and chatting to ken ching from ezee torq in china about the problems I was having (he thought the battery could be faulty).
It turns out also that the motor was not working correctly in freewheel thus increasing the judder (it is also now much easier to pedal with no power on for some reason).
The brake pads are much wider (and better), the replaced forks are an earlier less whippy design apparently. The wheel, tyre and spokes are also new (50 cycles was concerned about the lacing at one point), the battery is new (thanks to Ken Ching).
RESULT: a far better and instant 20 mile range on my first run (hilly in places), the battery functioning as one would expect with the red light coming on only very late into the ride. No judder on braking at all, ever in any conditions.
RESULT: I am now a happy customer, well done 50 cycles, but it has taken six months to get to the point when I can go out and really try the bike properly. It must have been a friday afternoon bike if they have such a thing in china!
50 cycles has just had another go at fixing my bike problems this time with with total success. This involved me emailing and chatting to ken ching from ezee torq in china about the problems I was having (he thought the battery could be faulty).
It turns out also that the motor was not working correctly in freewheel thus increasing the judder (it is also now much easier to pedal with no power on for some reason).
The brake pads are much wider (and better), the replaced forks are an earlier less whippy design apparently. The wheel, tyre and spokes are also new (50 cycles was concerned about the lacing at one point), the battery is new (thanks to Ken Ching).
RESULT: a far better and instant 20 mile range on my first run (hilly in places), the battery functioning as one would expect with the red light coming on only very late into the ride. No judder on braking at all, ever in any conditions.
RESULT: I am now a happy customer, well done 50 cycles, but it has taken six months to get to the point when I can go out and really try the bike properly. It must have been a friday afternoon bike if they have such a thing in china!
Thanks for this information Robert. As you may have noticed, I'd previously mentioned that I thought both the brake pads and wheel build were implicated in this. The fact that I followed my usual custom of re-truing the production wheels when I first got the bike was possibly a contributor to my not getting this problem on my Torq. The judder I did get on my Quando with the same Diacompe front brake is almost totally gone with a change to a harder longer profile pad, just a slight initial snatch left now which isn't a problem. The pads I've now found which seem most effective are Avid 20R, which Fisher Leisure stock as part no: AV 191020, as they are longer profile and a firmer pad material.
That said, given the front motor on the Torq and the desirability of avoiding rim wear on that wheel, I reverse my usual practice and routinely rely on the hub roller rear brake. Doing that is just a matter of anticipation to cope with the comparative weakness of the brake, and that's good safe road practice for any driver/rider anyway.
Pleased that you're happy with the bike now.
That said, given the front motor on the Torq and the desirability of avoiding rim wear on that wheel, I reverse my usual practice and routinely rely on the hub roller rear brake. Doing that is just a matter of anticipation to cope with the comparative weakness of the brake, and that's good safe road practice for any driver/rider anyway.
Pleased that you're happy with the bike now.
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