Torq or Swizzbee

[ITSPETEINIT]

More Torq Talk

Peter,

I appreciate all your information. To answer some of your questions, I weigh 150 lbs, and am 37 in pretty good shape. I would not be taking any extra luggage execept the battery charger. The route is around 15 miles. I am sorry that I don't have better information on the hills. I can climb them on my regular bike, but in a low gear and going pretty slow.
You are in pretty good shape certainly (ah me!) I not sure you need an electric assist bike. Your hills must be pretty steep (mountains?). My map I am ashamed to say is scale 1:5,000,000. On that all the land is at one level 500 to 1000 metres. I think you will have to bite the bullet (just the once).

Based on your knowlege and the knowledge of all the wonderful people on this site, at the end of the day what would be your choice for me. It sounds like the I zip is out, and the Swizzbee is out for price and location. So it would be between the Giant Lite on NYC wheels or the Torq. I am still confused on the Giant Lite. Does anybody have any thoughts on which one is better for hills and of course over all performance.

I have exactly the same dilemma. Have you thought about the CYCLONE see Electric Bicycle Motor Kits from Cyclone-USA . It's a very comprehensive site and will, for a modest price when added to you own bike do what most of the others will not do "Drive the bikes transmission" with the advantage of an 8 speed cassette on the rear wheel - your options for gearing for both the motor and your legs are too many to list here. Easily get a top of 104 inches (11 tooth sprocket and 26inch wheels) and a bottom of (remember that it has a maximum single chainwheel of 44 teeth) - 34 inches .
I don't have any experience of it but I am seriously considering giving it a trial so that I can have range (NiMh batteries 2 x 13 Ah) and power (360 or 500 watts nominal x any gear you like down to 34. That's high speed on the flat and high power/low speed on the mountains.

Again thankyou all for all of your help. As I mentioned earlier there isn't any dealers or people with your knowledge about these bikes in the frozen tundra.

Alternatively you could just move to Florida and sell the igloo.
Neil

By a trick of the light my message was too short (it was your message that was long!
Peter

 

[Minnesota]

I am concerned that because the Giant light has been discontinued, I will have trouble finding parts and support. I was wondering would it be harder to take a steep hill using the Torq or a regular non-electric bike?

The cyclone kit might be an option, I am not sure I have the knowledege to install one. Also, I am not sure I would want the kit always on my bike.

The snow is actually melting today, so I am anxious to get out there and bike!

Keith have you or anybody else used the Giant Light on steep hills?

 

[Minnesota]

Flecc

Thanks for the link on the 4 males testing for the Torq... I am wondering if perhaps the Quando is a better way to go.

 

[flecc]

Hello Minnesota

I own a Twist Lite on which I installed the same SRAM 5 speed hub as on the US bikes, and I live up a steep hill, running through 12% (i in 8) onto 14% (1 in 7), and I also have the Torq and Quando. All are used in my very hilly area.

The Torq, which uses the Quando's motor but very high geared in a 28" wheel, is poor on the hills, and I only make it up mine because the hill is short. In general I try to avoid hills steeper than 10% on the Torq, particularly long hills.

The Twist and Quando are both brilliant on hills, but in different ways. The Twist is low powered and climbs them by it's motor driving through whatever low gear you select. The lower the gear, the slower it goes but the steeper it can climb, generally at about 6 to 8 mph, depending on the hill.

I use both for trailer towing on hills, and you can see them on my site where there's a picture of the Quando and trailer on the 12/14% hill here.

The Quando is a normal hub motor drive, not through the gears, but it climbs on sheer power, as it's one of the highest powered Euro legal bikes. Where the Torq uses that motor geared for speed, the Quando has it normally geared for all round performance, and it climbs faster than the Twist.

The Twist and Quando do separate when it comes to the very steepest of hills though. On a long 20% (1 in 5) hill, the Quando can barely make that, if at all, even with a fit rider. The Twist will make it ok, just by changing down to the lowest gear, but the climb will only be at about 5 mph.

The only snag with the Quando for you is that it has a single 70" gear, so it's not practical to pedal much over 14 mph. Much of the time it's a case of sitting back and letting the bike do it all, which can be boring after a while.

One thing for you to bear in mind is the motor situation in the USA. While both Torq and Quando have the nominally 250 watt Euro legal motors there, the other eZee bikes have more powerful motors especially for the US market. Here they also have 250 watt motors, but there they have 350 watt motors which actually develop higher power than the Torq and Quando you have. The models with the bigger motor are the Sprint, Cadence, and the gents version of the Sprint, the Furi, which has the Torq styling.

These will be better than the Torq at hills, while still being quite fast. You can have a look at the US versions here.

Peter,

I appreciate all your information. To answer some of your questions, I weigh 150 lbs, and am 37 in pretty good shape. I would not be taking any extra luggage execept the battery charger. The route is around 15 miles. I am sorry that I don't have better information on the hills. I can climb them on my regular bike, but in a low gear and going pretty slow.

From what you've posted here, I think you'd manage on any of these bikes, but you might find the Torq tiring if the hills are quite steep ones, while the others I've mentioned will be easy for you. I agree that the spares risk with the Twist must be considered, and in your position my chosen bike would be the eZee Furi. In fact, if it had been available here, I would definitely have bought that instead of my Torq, even though ours would only have had a 250 watt motor.
.

 

[coops]

Giant lite = lafree/giant twist lite, performance on hills is like the Giant/Lafree Twist both I and Flecc referred to earlier as an excellent hill-climber (and mentioned much elsewhere on this forum) - goes slower as you go steeper since its an efficient "transmission drive", but capable of 1 in 5 (20%) - about as steep as you'd go in some cars! I know, I still find all the names confusing . I'd be a bit concerned too about lack of parts etc.

I've just seen that Flecc beat me to it, so to avoid overload, I'll just add a little: that's a good point on the torq/non-electric bike on steep hills - all depends on the gradient - if Torq can handle it, then Torq is easier (though "low" gear in a torq is very high @ 53", so you'd have to take it fast if pedalling, and would have no chance if battery ran out ) but if its too steep (say, over 8-10% for uk model - U.S. version looks the same?) then the Torq just won't do it, but you'd also struggle in a non-electric...

The Quando also has only 15 mile or so range aswell as one 70" (high) gear...

The Furi would have both the power & speed for hills in spades!! but given the quoted range on that site for the Torque is very optimistic at 30miles for what would here be a derestricted U.K. Torq (more like 15-20 miles max?), the Furi's range as 10-30 miles (?!! very non-specific!) wouldn't fill me with encouragement that it would handle your 30-mile round trip, even on two batteries! (unless you were very economical with the power, in which case it may serve you very well, but that's easier said than done with a twist-grip throttle).

 

[Minnesota]

Flec based on what you have said, it sounds like the Furi might be a good option. I hadn't even thought of that one. It weighs a bit more than the Giant Light. Around 15 lbs I think. I wonder if the extra weight will make a difference or not based on the motor. I would hate for the battery to run out and than have to peddle a 65 pound bike. I suppose that is the risk with any of these bikes. I am hoping to pedal as much as I can on my route for the exercise. Is the motor for the Giant and the Torq the same in the UK and US?

 

[coops]

To be honest Neil, I can't see why the Furi is 15lbs more than the Torq & 20lbs heavier than the Giant twist lite??? 67.5lbs is what, 28kg? Motor is possibly heavier sure, but those figures don't add up - could be the Torq figure is low by ~3-4kg: 24kg is nearer Torq weight I think...

The weight will need more motor power on hills, but that seems to be compensated for in the higher 700Wpeak/350W continous output motor of the Furi & lower top speed so more torque (cf 500/250 for Torq, which is the same as U.K. derestricted I think). The Giant motor is also the same in U.K. - 390W peak.

I think it's best not to have to ride unassisted if possible especially since gearing is likely to be higher on the Furi than an average non-electric bike: heavy bike + high gearing = big trouble on hills!

Which is why I suggested you keep an eye on the range aswell as power - the two are usually inversely proportional. I think the Furi has the power & speed as I said for hills, but range could be eaten up by overuse of throttle on such a powerful bike .

Stuart.

 

[Minnesota]

Stuart I checked the weight again on the Furi and it says around 67 1/2 pounds. That seems to heavy to me. The Giant is only 47 pounds according to the NYCE website. I think at the end of the day, I don't want to get stuck on a hill with the Torq which probably won't get me up the hill, or the Furi which might not have the range and the weight might be more than I can handle to pedal on my own on a hill.

From all the information from this forum, I am going to go for it with the Giant Lite from NYCEWheels. I am still nervous about the lack of parts because the bike has been discontinued. But Flecc and many others have had their Giants for a few years and it doesn't sound like there has been many problems. I imagine there are enough people out there with the Giant Lite that might have alternatives if any parts need to be replaced down the road.

Flecc I checked out your link on the Twist you have. I am impressed with all the information. It is encouraging to know that there is a place to go with these questions. Especially when there isn't any bike shop in the Midwest part of the states. I imagine once the snow melts and I order/recieve my bike that I will have a ton of questions.

Thanks
Neil

 

[flecc]

I knew the Furi was heavier, but I'm surprised it's quite that much. It's got more and better equipment than the Torq though, and that's where much of the extra weight comes from. By contrast, your Twists don't have lighting, carrier or mudguards (fenders), so are much lighter than ours, hence much of that extra difference. There's no problem with the Furi's gearing range since it has the Shimano 8 speed hub and it's geared much lower than the Torq.

Looking at your 15 mile journey and the fact that it's hilly means it's going to be a two battery job with the eZee bikes, if not at first, shortly after. When we asked members for their Torq range some while ago, nearly all came in around 15 miles, with some in flatter areas getting around 18. These were with unrestricted bikes, and all yours are like that, restriction being on Euro versions only. All batteries lose capacity over time, and a Li-ion will typically lose around 33% in the first year. So even if you can make it when the bike's new, after a short while you'll need the second battery with you. Many of us here ride with a second battery.

My Quando also gave around 15 miles at best when new, and independent tests have given the same, so much the same applies for that as well. Stuart's point on the range of the more powerful motors is a good one, since the range could easily drop to about 10 miles with those, meaning two batteries at the outset, and even that might barely make it after 18 months. That's the penalty of your higher powered market, your bikes having that shorter range.

Leaves you a bit stumped for choice though, since the only Euro size 250 watt motors I know of there are the Twist, Torq and Quando. The Quando will demolish the hills easily and quite fast, but it won't be anything like as good a cycling experience over the 15 miles. The Torq will be ok if the hills are gentle ones, so I think you should try to measure them to make a judgement on that.

The Giant Twist will be a very good cycling experience, with or without the power switched on. It will climb anything without any bother and most owners find it's initial range is about 20 miles. Because it's batteries are NiMh types, they lose capacity at a much slower rate, so the range will hold good for longer. Therefore the old Giant Twist ticks all your boxes, it's main disadvantages being that the hill climbing can be slower when they are steep and the fact it's discontinued. My advice would be to buy a second battery at the outset in case they are eventually discontinued and alternate the use of those. I did that and used them for four years successfully. Also, get the five speed, as I understand there are still some of the earlier 4 speed on your market. The batteries can be re-celled when exhausted, and if you do that with a 10 Ah hour pack, part number 3R767, from your excellent batteryspace company, the range in hilly areas increases to over 25 miles.

Re: your kind comment on my site, your questions will always be welcome, both here and via my site contact point. In the USA, as well as Nycewheels and others, there's an enthusiastic West Coast Giant Twist dealer named Eric Sundin of ElectricBikesNW who was responsible for Giant americanising the bikes for your market, so you have some of the right backup there as well.
.

 

[Minnesota]

Flecc,

I am going to place my order for the Twist lite on Monday. I will make sure that it is the 5 speed. I did look at Electric Bikes NW and I am impressed with their site and it's information. I even like the fact that the shipping is only 50.00 to a local bike shop, and than they will even pay for the local bike shop to assembly. The problem is that they don't ship the Twist Light with the 20 inch frame. They only ship the step through. Doesn't make any sense to me, but perhaps it has something to do with shipping sizes. I might give the a call anyway with a few questions. One of them being why they don't ship the Twist Lite that I am interested in. I will also look into the extra battery option. I might as well get one now and as you said alternate them.

Thanks
Neil

 

[coops]

Hi again Neil

In my last post I wasn't questioning your facts, (but rather sharing your concerns re weight & puzzling (out loud!) over why the Furi should be so much heavier) - my apologies if it came across that way - it was certainly not intended, just my carelessness in expressing myself

I hope the discussion has helped in your decision, and from what I've heard of the Twists I think you'll be pleased.

Good luck with your order - I hope you can get the frame type & size you're after shipped ok. I empathise with you since I'm planning to order Monday too, so let's hope its all ok & many happy hours of hill-busting cycling lie ahead

Stuart.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi neal
good choice from reading other threads i think it is the right bike for you i also had a twist lite and at the moment it is still the best all round bike out there as flecc says it will take on most hills ok maybe a bit slower but your still get there what i really liked about the twist is that its a good bike to ride with power off then when you felt a bit tired you just flick a switch i also thought it was well made and good quality and at 20 kilos still the best out there also 2 batterys a good ideal and maybe you can buy some marathon plus tyres.NIGEL.

 

[coops]

at 20 kilos still the best out there also 2 batterys a good ideal and maybe you can buy some marathon plus tyres.NIGEL.

When you put it like that, it sounds unstoppable Nigel!

P.S. the bike I'm planning to get is built like a tank, & you can hear it coming from several blocks away, so ain't nothing better get in my way too

 

[flecc]

That's good Neil. Let us know what you find out about that shipping problem on the crossbar version. I also spotted that on their site, and made an assumption that their stock is possibly unbalanced and they need to shift more of the step-through, so they've made it easier to buy that version online.

Once you have the bike, learn the riding technique for getting the best out of it. If you put loads of fast pedalling effort in when tackling hills, the bike's software will think that you don't need much help and won't give much, although you'll get a longer range as a result.

If you slow your pedalling, by changing up if necessary, the software interprets that as you struggling, so it helps with more power, making your life easier. Of course that does lessen the range if you do that all the time.

On the flat you'll find it easy to cycle with the power switched right off by the handy handlebar switch, and that gets rid of all motor associated sound too.

Once you get used to these techniques, you'll find the bike has it's own unique appeal, which nothing else matches.
.

 

[Krow]

Neil, I've been curious about why EbikesNW doesn't ship the 20" frame, too. I live in Seattle, so let me know if there's something I can do to help you with Eric or ship it on for you.

I met Eric yesterday at a Bike Show. We lamented the end of the Giant Lite line, but he's very confident that they are high quality bikes that will last a long time. He was highlighting the eZee Torq at the show and also had the BionX kits on a few of his folders.

 

[Minnesota]

Krow,

Thank you for the kind offer to help get the 20" frame shipped out. I think I am going to call NYCEwheels today and place the order. I have spoken with them a couple of times. they have been very nice and helpful. They sell the Giant Twist Lite for 1300.00. This is the same price as Electric Bikes NW. The difference lies in shipping and assembly. NW will ship (the stepthru only) to a local bike shop for 50.00 and pay the local bike shop for assembly. This seems extremely reasonable.

NYCE will ship, assemble, and fine tune the bike for 200.00. I really don't want to spend the extra 150.00, but it might make sense to have them tune and assemble it. I am not confident in our local bike shops . Sure they can put them together, but I don't want them messing around with the bike. I know the electical components are ready to go and no assembly is required. But it would be something new for out local bike shops, and I fear the temptation to try it out and perhaps disect it a little might be too much for them.

I did try to get ahold of NW bikes, but they are only open Wednesday - Saturday. I am just curious why they don't ship the 20". Is it an inventory thing like Flecc suggested, or is there some other reason.

Neil

 

[Krow]

Sounds reasonable, Neil. Good luck with the purchase!