Torq double battery arrangement

[JamesC]

Encouraged by various postings to the forum, I have now completed the addition of a 2nd battery to my 2007 Torq.

Wired in parallel with the standard battery and segregated by a Schottky Diode, the objective is to have an easily removable 2nd battery to share the load in hilly terrain (or aginst the wind on long open fen roads).

Normal usage would be 2x Ezee Li-ion batteries, although the segregation allows for a mix of Lithium and NiMH batteries if circumstances arise.


The carrier mounted battery, complete with Ezee battery bag, is from the ezee bike kit supplied through www.ebikes.ca Homepage of the revolution. From time to time, a surplus battery and bag become available when a customer needs just the motor/controller part of the kit.

This makes for a tidy double battery arrangement on the Torq. Indeed, a kit of parts for long distance assisted cycling could be a useful addition to the UK.

Note that the Ezee Li-ion battery supplied with their kits already includes an on/off rocker switch attached to the battery, adjacent to the charging port. Positive and negative tails fitted with bullet connectors are brought out of the base, in place of the normal copper connectors of a standard battery.

Thus, this battery is NOT properly equipped to be used in the standard position on the bike, but is ideal for use in the "extra" position.

Next little job is to make an adapter with flying lead to suit any ezee battery for use in the carrier bag.


A small aluminium enclosure is fitted just above the key switch, and houses the diode and a rigidly mounted Powerpole socket.

The bag mounted battery has a short flying lead with Powerpole plug for easy addition when long journeys are planned.

A dummy Powerpole plug is used to keep water out of the socket when using just the standard plug.

Over the next period of usage, I hope to be able to judge whether sharing the load between 2 batteries AND avoiding deep discharge of one battery is beneficial to the lifespan of the Li-ion on the Torq 1.


I will add link to photos when I have remembered how to do that !! I will also post more details on the bits and pieces used in the modification.

James

 

[Ian]

Nice work James, I'll probaby add a second battery to mine at some stage. At present I carry a spare on long rides but usually only use it for a short distance near the end so am looking towards a smaller lighter additional battery, probably using 4.5Ah C size NiMh cells. I will probably use a switch rather than diodes so that I can use it in the manner of a reserve fuel tank.

 

[JamesC]

Attaching pictures

Please could someone remind me of an external website for posting pictures.
Thanks
James

 

[Ian]

A lot of people use flickr.com, it's free but does require registration. Small images can be included in the post as attachments, in that case there will be a link in the post to access the image. Attachments can be added by clicking on the paper clip icon when creating a post in advanced mode, there is a size limit of 97k though.

Another way, which is what I do, is to host pictures on the free web space that most isp's provide with your account, this normally requires ftp software to upload the files though.

 

[JamesC]

Thanks Ian and Flecc.
Pictures now added to first post of thread.
James

 

[Ian]

A very neat job James. Dare I ask the total cost of the battery and bag?

 

[JamesC]

A very neat job James. Dare I ask the total cost of the battery and bag?

Including air freight from Vancouver (3 day delivery as against 6 weeks by ship) 600 Can$ excluding tax for battery and bag. However, availability depends on a hub motor kit being split, so important to check position.

Perhaps 50cycles could supply the bags.

Note that there is a nifty little flap in the bag to access the charging port and on/off switch without removal. A small compartment at the front of the bag would carry the controller in normal kit use - I have added a block of polystyrene packaging to fill the space.

If using a normal battery, it will be important to make the battery base adapter such that it is impossible to get the +ve and -ve pins back to front !!

In the form that I have used, the "kit" battery will always remain with the bag and be employed only on long runs to back up either a standard Li-ion or NiMH.

James

 

[Tiberius]

Loosk pretty good James, and a very neat installation.
What I found with my multi battery installation was that I could still go down to the red light level very early in a journey, but carry on without cutouts. The 3 coloured LEDs can be very misleading - you are still going to get voltage drops under load, but they will be less severe and recovery will be quicker.

Nick

PS. What connectors are you using?

 

[JamesC]

Connectors

What I found with my multi battery installation was that I could still go down to the red light level very early in a journey, but carry on without cutouts. The 3 coloured LEDs can be very misleading - you are still going to get voltage drops under load, but they will be less severe and recovery will be quicker.

PS. What connectors are you using?

Nick
Over the past 12 months / 1300 odd miles, I have used both single Li-ion and single NiMH and got fairly used to the voltage display of the 3 coloured LEDs.

One of your early threads gave the breakdown of voltages at which the LEDs switch, and it has always been very noticeable that the lower starting voltage of a single, freshly charged, NiMH battery puts one much nearer the green/yellow changepoint, compared with a Li-ion battery.

With the double setup, introducing just one combining diode knocks 0.5 volt off the Li-ion starting volts, so starting off closer to the switch point.

So, as you say, the voltage drop under load is noticeable on the lights, but the feeling is very solid, and voltage recovery is very quick.



I will add some photos tomorrow of the bits that I have used, but the secret of doing the mod in a confined space is to use the beautiful (and expensive) 32A silicon covered, highly flexible, cable from Maplin - fortunately available in "cut lengths". References BJ40T red (3 metres) and BJ41U black (2 metres).

Effectively this is 2.5mm cable using blue crimp connectors.

There is just the one pair of red/black cables that will be unplugged frequently at the new junction with the carrier bag battery. I have used the red/black pair 30A Powerpole connectors, together with the excellent Powerpole PVC Sleeve on the flying lead from the battery. All the range is available from Torberry Connectors Online Shop.

The +ve connections into the Ezee loom are made at the M/F Bullet Connector which exists 3 inches below the +ve battery pin.
50cycles kindly supplied some ezee connectors so that I did not have to change anything original.

The same M/F Bullet Connectors are needed to extend the ezee tails that are fitted as standard to the outlet of the "kit" battery.

Lastly, for the additional -ve cable to the new carrier mounted battery, I came directly off the underside of the -ve battery pin (pin nearest to battery retaining slide) of the standard battery with a blue, 5.3mm eye, crimp terminal.

All of the above are an excellent fit with this Maplin cable, and I am confident that the crimps will survive successfully.


Thanks for the advice that came out of your "storms up hills" thread and earlier discussions. Hope this one helps to continue the theme.

James

 

[Tiberius]

Hi James,

I use the 30A Anderson Powerpole connectors too - I solder rather than crimp them, mainly because that way I can accomodate various wire sizes. They look as if they are not waterproof, but I have been using them for 300V lines on a hovercraft for years with no problems.

The bullet connectors I have mostly given up on in favour of soldered connections. There were too many issues with 4mm or 5mm bullets and blue or yellow crimp ends to take different sizes. It wasn't helped by my bike starting with some non standard ones (4 mm bullets on large cables).

There was also the whole space issue with putting the cycle analyst (from our good friends at ebikes.ca) in. Bullet connectors with sleeving over them were just too long.

Nick

PS. We should have a multi battery hill storming team.

 

[4beeches0]

May I add my 'well done' to your enterprising installation. I bought a second battery (Li-ion) in order to tackle longer journeys and was very interested to read of your set-up. Would it be possible to produce a wiring diagram which I, and no doubt other members, could follow ? This would be much apreciated.
JohnS

 

[JamesC]

Electrical wiring

Would it be possible to produce a wiring diagram which I, and no doubt other members, could follow ? This would be much apreciated.

Thanks for the appreciation John.

For the electrical connections of this set-up it is easiest seen on the excellent schematic that Flecc has created on his Torq site here. Please take a print and read on.

For info, my 2007 Torq was wired like this, but EXCLUDING electrical connections to the 2 brake levers.

Also note that the front and rear lights have mechanical links which earth them to the bike frame, giving the frame a -ve polarity. This was a requirement only when the lights were fed from a dynamo.
By Jan 2007, the lights were powered from the main battery using both + and - cables, so the connection to the frame can be removed to reduce the risk of shorting a cable against the frame.

Open the front headlight and also remove the pivot bolt that holds the lamp to its bracket. Carefully remove the small screw that holds the copper connector strip inside the lamp. Cut off the piece of copper strip that picks up on the pivot bolt. Reassemble.

Open the rear light and note that one of the two M6 fixing bolts passes through the copper connection strip, earthing it to the frame. Swap this M6 nut/bolt for a nylon equivalent. Might need a specialist supplier (eg Sterling Nut and Bolt in Peterborough here).


Referring to Flecc's wiring diagram of the Torq, the standard battery is shown with a - and + at the base.
Note that the -ve battery connection pin is close to the battery location slide, and the +ve connection pin is the one furthest away from the location slide.

The -ve connection cable of the 2nd battery is wired through to the underside of the -ve pin of the standard battery, using a good 5.3mm dia eyelet onto the existing 5mm dia brass pin.

Flecc shows the + cable coming from the + battery pin into the battery key switch. There is a short (3 inch) stub of cable fixed to the + battery pin, with a bullet connector connector under shrinkwrap to join it to the stub of cable from the key switch.

Carefully cut the shrinkwrap at this bullet connector and break the + connection exactly at the + sign on Flecc's diagram.

Use ezee "blue" male and female bullet connectors available from 50cycles for the new cables as I have not found the exact match amongst the standard UK equivalents.

The combining Schottky diode that I have used is from RS Components RS 651-8692 here.

NOTE that the metal backface of this component is electrically live and must be insulated from the metal surface to which it is fixed (but still able to conduct away heat). A suitable "washer" which insulates electrically, but conducts heat is Maplin CH03D here.

This combo uses an M2.5 dia nut and bolt to fix it to a metallic surface.

The existing battery + goes to one outer pin; the new battery + goes to the other outer pin, and the combined capacity of both batteries then becomes available at the centre pin, which is wired back to the original cable feeding into the key switch

To achieve tight radii and good crimps, I have used the very very flexible cable from Maplin here.

Mechanical details and pictures to follow.

Thanks to Flecc, Tiberius and Ian - please feel free to add comments

James

 

[flecc]

Excellent job James, and thanks for the very clear description of the installation which I'm sure will help many others.
.

 

[4beeches0]

Thanks James for an easy to follow description of the process. I shall assemble the appropriate components and give it a go.
Many thanks, JohnS

 

[JamesC]

Mechanical details

Here are some useful notes on how the bits were fitted in for the double battery arrangement on my bike.

Access is a bit tight, but earlier mods on the bike include little stub bars fitted to the handlebars, similar to those shown on Flecc's Torq site here. (Page down to see).

REMOVE BATTERY BEFORE ATTEMPTING ANYTHING.

To start with, perch bike upside down on saddle and handlebar stubs.
Remove rear wheel and rear mudguard.
Remove pedal with chainwheel.

Now perch bike on its nose (front wheel and handlebar stubs), and lean back end against the wall. Access is hugely improved in this position.


The empty space for the aluminium enclosure is shown here. Note that the box will be fixed with the 2 existing nuts and bolts. The extended slots in the baseplate conveniently allow for the bolthead fixing the diode into the box to sit into the slot.

The aluminium enclosure is the shallow AB12 (25mm high) from Maplin here.
HOWEVER, it is important to modify this for a "split lid" to enable the innards to preassembled, prior to bolting in.
For the modified lid, it was convenient to buy also the next size up AB9 from which to make the upper section of the lid.

Note the careful positioning of the box - enough space between keyswitch and box to manipulate the bottom section of lid in the final stages AND enough space above the box to achieve a good entry angle for the Powerpole socket.

The bottom section of lid is screwed on from the top face, and the original screw hole in the bottom face is left unoccupied as a useful drain hole !! (I recall that Flecc tackles deep puddles so a little caution is neccessary if the controller is already immersed

The smaller top section of lid is cut from the lid of the deeper case to achieve an overlap.

Join a red & black Powerpole sleeve into a pair then file out a rectangular hole just under the top face to allow the connector to fit half way through the aluminium lid. Glue into place with Araldite, incorporating a shallow wooden wedge to angle the connector to clear the mudguard flange on the Torq platework.

The bottom section of lid includes the hole for a grommet which must allow 3 cables (2red & 1black) protected by heatshrink to just slide through after fitting on the bike. File away the inner flange area to clear the grommet, whilst leaving a little bit of flange for silicone sealant.

Drill and test fit lids etc prior to installing diode and cables.

Before fitting the diode into the enclosure, the three red + cables must be soldered into place. Two red cables will feed down to the bottom bracket area (75 cms long) and one red cable will feed around the box into the Powerpole. Use an indelible felt marker to draw a line all the way down one of the 75 cm cables and use this between the diode centre pin and the connection to the keyswitch (once inside shrinkwrap it will not be easy to distinguish the two cables).

The pins of the diode are approx 15mm long - tin them neatly with solder.
Remove only 5mm from the ends of the 3 red cables, then starting with the centre pin (and previously marked cable), push the pin 10 mm down the cable and solder the remaining 5 mmin place on the top face.

Repeat with the 2 outer cables, keeping as much distance from the centre pin as possible.

Insulate the pin areas with 2 layers of 6.5mm heatshrink on each cable, remembering that the cables must bend almost immediately from the end of the pin.

The Schottky diode (with insulating washer between metal face and aluminium box) is fixed in place with an M2.5 bolt inserted from beneath, using 2 nuts inside the box (nut and locknut with Loctite). The bolthead must line up with the long slot on the Torq plate.

Use some collars of 9.5mm heatshrink to achieve a shape to the cables around the box.

Use cable ties, leaving a short stalk, to wedge the cables out of reach of the screws for the lids.

Fix the top section into place, sealing between flange and lid with silicone.

Crimp the Anderson pole end to the short red cable and slide into place.

Add a 75cm black cable with Anderson pole end into the black connector.

Fix the enclosure into place, and prepare the shape down to the bottom bracket using 9.5mm heat shrink.

Finally, work the bottom section of lid up the cable and fix into place.

BOTTOM BRACKET AREA

Before starting:

and looking up at the underside of the battery pins, covered by heatshrink, after removing the minimum number of cable ties.

Remove the brass nut from the - battery pin, in preparation to receive the new black cable with 5.3mm eyelet.

Work the loom through and separate the black cable.

Work the distances and bind the 2 neagtive cables with a short section of heat shrink before refitting the nut. Very tight in this area.

Leaving the 2 red cables to complete the job.

The red cable WITHOUT the indelible line requires a (female ? I think) connector to connect to the +ve battery pin.

The red cable WITH the indelible line, going up to the centre pin of the diode, requires a (male ? I think) connector to connect through to the keyswitch.

Use heatshrink and thin cable ties on either side of the bullet connectors, working to minimise ingress of moisture and support each joint.

Tiewrap cables into a neat bundle.

Reassemble and test each battery separately before attempting the pair together.

Testing on my own bike will continue through the year.

James

 

[Tiberius]

Hi James,

Those are pretty good and comprehensive instructions, but may I add something? There is a ready made plate for fixing 2 Anderson Powerpole connectors to a panel. Here from RS
That will make the filing easier and you don't need to Araldite them in.

The only other thing I did was bring out another pair of connectors with the switched 36 V (after the keyswitch) on them. That's for lights and future gadgets.

Did you get a special crimp tool or did you have one already that would fit?

Nick

 

[JamesC]

Those are pretty good and comprehensive instructions, but may I add something? There is a ready made plate for fixing 2 Anderson Powerpole connectors to a panel. Here from RS
That will make the filing easier and you don't need to Araldite them in.

The panel mounting kit would certainly do a very nice job, but I think it requires the connectors to come through the face at right angles.

Using a 25mm deep box, I needed to angle the connectors to clear the mudguard fixing flange.

Something like 35mm deep would probably fit in AND clear the flange. Alternatively, the flange could be cut away, but I was keen to avoid any disturbance to the Torq.

A wider search for an alternative enclosure might be worthwhile, and would make it easier to include the additional takeoff point for accessories - good idea.

And yes, I invested heavily in an Anderson crimp tool, but hope to spread it over some other work.

James

 

[Ian]

A very comprehensive description of a job well done James and interesting to note that your red heatshrink covering a certain connector is still intact!. I see my requirements as being slightly different so will probably take a slightly different approach with a smaller "reserve" battery and a changeover switch to avoid carrying the weight of a battery that will usually only be partially discharged.

I find it encouraging that others are seeking to extend their range and use their bikes as tourers in the true sense of the word. I have always regarded my bike as a tourer and have often carried a spare battery to extend range but I've yet to find a means of carrying it that I'm totally happy with. The purpose made Ezee bag as used by James is one possible solution as is a smaller battery carried on the rack.

Ironically the longest singe ride I've ever made on the Torq, of 46 miles, was done with no spare battery and enough charge remaining for a shopping trip which brought the total on a single charge of a 9Ah NiMh battery to 50 miles.
The knowledge that one is a long way from home with no spare is a very effective way way of maximising range!

 

[JamesC]

I find it encouraging that others are seeking to extend their range and use their bikes as tourers in the true sense of the word. I have always regarded my bike as a tourer and have often carried a spare battery to extend range

Ian
I hope to find out a little more about the effects of often using the full charge of a Li-ion battery.

Using the bike as a "2 battery" tourer (but often in flat terrain), my lack of experience early last year meant that I used battery 1 for say 18-20 miles until almost flat (red light), then battery 2 for just the final 8 or 10. Next time out, it would be the other way round.

I experienced a similar loss of capacity during the year that is more often attributed to high current demand in hilly areas.


On the other hand, it is also noted that Li-ion benefits from being recharged after partial use, and maybe don't like a full discharge (except for initial conditioning).

So this year, I am thinking to share the work as often as possible using the double arrangement, and recharging both batteries when each has done say 14 or 15.


I can see the merits of using a small 2nd battery to share high currents, particularly for those with usage well within the capacity range of a single Li-ion battery.

For those that tour/explore with less definition to the journey, I am thinking that staying well inside the range of 20AH might help battery life.

James