Took the plunge

[vfr400]

Don't Wisper use a AKM128 250W ?

Yes, the same motor. Several recognised brands use the AKM100 also, which is listed as 350w in some places. The whole thing is a meaningless mess.

If you use a hub-motor, it's marked as 250w or nothing at all, it's smaller than say 9" diameter and you tell everybody it's 250w, I can't see how any expert can argue against that let alone any policeman.

 

[sjpt]

Yes, the same motor. Several recognised brands use the AKM100 also, which is listed as 350w in some places. The whole thing is a meaningless mess.

If you use a hub-motor, it's marked as 250w or nothing at all, it's smaller than say 9" diameter and you tell everybody it's 250w, I can't see how any expert can argue against that let alone any policeman.

Meaningless mess certainly.

I thought that technically the motor was meant to be marked as 250w (or less). I can't remember where I got that from, and can't find a reference.

 

[Nealh]

The product marking on the same motor 250/350w I believe and others also believe is for marketing, for the EU/UK 250w is used but for USA and other countries 350w or 500w is used as they daren't think of using 250w as they feel it inferior. USA especially as bigger is better.

 

[vfr400]

Meaningless mess certainly.

I thought that technically the motor was meant to be marked as 250w (or less). I can't remember where I got that from, and can't find a reference.

To conform with EN15194, an ebike has to be marked with various things, including manufacturer, speed and power; however, I don't believe that your bike has to comply with EN15194 to be legal. The law is that it has to have a motor rated at no more than 250w, max speed of 25km/h and the motor must stop when you stop pedalling. There's a 10% tolerance allowed on the speed when testing to cover measurement errors. There's no test to for the rated power that will expose a more powerful motor, though if your motor is outputting 2KW, some difficult questions could be asked.

I think it would be wise for anybody who's done their own conversion to add their own label to the bike somewhere with that info on it, no matter how amateurish. You can use the motor manufacturer as the manufacturer. Print it out and use 50mm wide clear sellotape to stick it to the frame or motor somewhere.

Example:
Bafang Motor Co. Ltd, SuZhou, China
Max speed 25 km/h
Rated power 250w
36V

 

[dwvl]

.... the 250 and 350 can probably both be adjusted except one will deliver a bit more power.
The motor winding may be different or the controlle amps will be different.

This. My Yose 250W front hub kit has the speed limit in the controller set to 70kph (or something, I can't remember). But the motor windings ensure that it won't assist above about 16mph when my 36V battery is fully-charged.

So I'm happy that I'm fully legal even though the LCD allows me to change the speed limit.

 

[soundwave]

This. My Yose 250W front hub kit has the speed limit in the controller set to 70kph (or something, I can't remember). But the motor windings ensure that it won't assist above about 16mph when my 36V battery is fully-charged.

So I'm happy that I'm fully legal even though the LCD allows me to change the speed limit.

but it is not road legal the fact you can change the settings in the lcd means it has a of road switch and not road legal.

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

 

[dwvl]

but it is not road legal the fact you can change the settings in the lcd means it has a of road switch and not road legal.

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

I disagree. There's nothing I can do to "enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph" on my bike.

 

[soundwave]

So I'm happy that I'm fully legal even though the LCD allows me to change the speed limit.

you really dont get it even tho you cant get any more speed the fact it can be changed means it has a of road switch.

it is not road legal even if it went 10mph.

 

[dwvl]

you really dont get it even tho you cant get any more speed the fact it can be changed means it has a of road switch.

it is not road legal even if it went 10mph.

You said:

....electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law.

I'm pointing out that, of the many switches and modes on my ebike, none of them enable it to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph.

You seem to be saying that an off-road switch that limited the bike's speed to 10mph would make it illegal. I'd like to respect your opinion, but that's not what the legislation you've just quoted says.

 

[soundwave]

if you have access to the settings it is not road legal as it will be classed as a of road switch, if i remove my dongle i have now way to access anything i cant even change the wheel size.

not that i really care but that could be used against you in a court of law even if you cant get past 15.5mph

 

[dwvl]

if you have access to the settings it is not road legal as it will be classed as a of road switch.......

not that i really care but that could be used against you in a court of law even if you cant get past 15.5mph

You've repeated this several times now.

I don't doubt that this is your opinion, but in the interests of accuracy and transparency to other readers of this forum in the future, you should provide facts that support your opinon.

So far, all I've seen is that off-road switches that allow speeds greater than 15.5mph are illegal.

 

[sjpt]

I don't think you are getting anywhere. I'm 100% with dwvl on this. While some of the legislation is unclear (particularly the exact meaning of the 250w), the excerpt quoted above seems clear and unambiguous. If none of the modes permits assistance over 25kph then the switch does not prevent the bike complying with UK EPAC law.

Otherwise our pas 1 to 5 or eco to turbo settings would make our bikes fail to comply.

 

[soundwave]

until cases start going to court it is all still a guess how they would enforce the epac laws and what parts of it.

martin at ebike shop does not give a crap as sells dongles and fits them to the bikes he sells and honors the warranty.

not like the police are sat outside taking everyone's bikes of them lol

 

[Deleted member 25121]

....electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law.

If the switch doesn't allow the motor to provide assistance above 15.5mph then it's not breaking any laws. That seems very straightforward to me, it would never get to court because there's no law been broken.

 

[Woosh]

....electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law.

If the switch doesn't allow the motor to provide assistance above 15.5mph then it's not breaking any laws. That seems very straightforward to me, it would never get to court because there's no law been broken.

consider this: you take a typical Bafang SWX geared hub motor whose noload speed is about 230RPM.
It would break the law if derestricted. That's well established.
Now if that motor is fitted to a 20" folding bike as it is often the case with a lot of Chinese folding bikes, it would assist to about 13.5mph, that's why you see them fitted with the LED panel and no speedometer.
If the wind blows gently in the direction of travel, that folding bike can conceivably exceed 15mph.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

consider this: you take a typical Bafang SWX geared hub motor whose noload speed is about 230RPM.
It would break the law if derestricted. That's well established.
Now if that motor is fitted to a 20" folding bike as it is often the case with a lot of Chinese folding bikes, it would assist to about 13.5mph, that's why you see them fitted with the LED panel and no speedometer.
If the wind blows gently in the direction of travel, that folding bike can conceivably exceed 15mph.

Hmmm ...... my first thought is that the folding bikes are in breach of the UK EAPC laws if they're capable of providing assistance above 15.5mph.

 

[vfr400]

You've repeated this several times now.

I don't doubt that this is your opinion, but in the interests of accuracy and transparency to other readers of this forum in the future, you should provide facts that support your opinon.

So far, all I've seen is that off-road switches that allow speeds greater than 15.5mph are illegal.

You can adjust the speed of just about every ebike ever made. I bet even yours can be adjusted by the settings if you know how. Tell us what you have, and I'll tell you if it's possible.

 

[Nealh]

The switch issue as I see is more simplistic and is about a simple on off flick of a switch that instantly transforms the bikes speed and not a display that you have to fumble around with in the settings.
As SW has said though until someone is actual taken to court over it we will never know.

 

[dwvl]

You can adjust the speed of just about every ebike ever made. I bet even yours can be adjusted by the settings if you know how. Tell us what you have, and I'll tell you if it's possible.

Thanks for the offer vfr400 - in the interests of experimentation, you're on . But I should tell you we've been here before - see https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/yosepower-hub-kits.30061/page-46#post-496757

It's a Yosepower 250W front hub in a 26" wheel with their 7/15A controller and an LCD3. With a 36V battery.

 

[Woosh]

Hmmm ...... my first thought is that the folding bikes are in breach of the UK EAPC laws if they're capable of providing assistance above 15.5mph.

I bet a lot of manufacturers wouldn't think they break any law when they omit a speedometer on an otherwise low speed e-bike.