Tonsheng TSDZ8 conversion kit.

Percypig

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Are you sure that the power is proportional to the pedal force from the torque sensor? The TSDZ2 doesn't work like that at all. As far as I can figure out, it has two power levels for each setting on the LCD. You get a low level of power as soon as you press the pedal, and a higher level when you cross some torque threshold. The higher the pedal assist setting, the more you can feel/see it. I would have thought that the TSDZ8 would be similar.
From my experience over one 25 mile ride was the more effort I put in, the more assistance I seemed to get from the motor. I am not sure how it's supposed to work but that is how it felt to me rewarding any extra effort put in.

Is there an ebike setting on Strava to differentiate between ebikes and normal bikes? Just set about 15 PR's a couple of KOM's on one ride which somewhat devalue my unassisted ride achievements.
 
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Bikes4two

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Are you sure that the power is proportional to the pedal force from the torque sensor? The TSDZ2 doesn't work like that at all. As far as I can figure out, it has two power levels for each setting on the LCD. You get a low level of power as soon as you press the pedal, and a higher level when you cross some torque threshold. The higher the pedal assist setting, the more you can feel/see it. I would have thought that the TSDZ8 would be similar.
  • I wonder @saneagle if there is some sort of problem with your particular TSDZ2?
  • I remember you describing your experiences on your TSDZ2 bike when you first reviewed it and I said then that your experience was not the same as mine as in it absolutely DOES provide power in proportion to rider effort, or at least the three TSDZ2 in my household and two friends conversion ride like that.
  • (BTW My three TSDZ2 have OSF on them but the other two are OEM firmware.)
  • Below is an example copy of the OSF Java configurator where you can see that the whole idea of the various configuration options is to provide power as a percentage of rider input with that percentage determined by the Assist Level.
  • 59507
 

saneagle

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  • I wonder @saneagle if there is some sort of problem with your particular TSDZ2?
  • I remember you describing your experiences on your TSDZ2 bike when you first reviewed it and I said then that your experience was not the same as mine as in it absolutely DOES provide power in proportion to rider effort, or at least the three TSDZ2 in my household and two friends conversion ride like that.
  • (BTW My three TSDZ2 have OSF on them but the other two are OEM firmware.)
  • Below is an example copy of the OSF Java configurator where you can see that the whole idea of the various configuration options is to provide power as a percentage of rider input with that percentage determined by the Assist Level.
  • View attachment 59507
That table doesn't give any indication that power varies within a level. It only shows power levels for each PAS setting. What I'm suggesting is that there are two power levels in each setting that are chosen according to how hard you pedal. It gives the impression that the harder you pedal, the more power you get, but it's not proportional. Check yours again, especially in level 4 to see if you can feel the step in power.

If you didn't know and didn't think about it, you wouldn't know how the power changes. It's only when you have a discerning and calibrated bum, like mine, that you can see the difference. A wattmeter would show it too.
 
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Bikes4two

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That table doesn't give any indication that power varies within a level. It only shows power levels for each PAS setting.
A fair comment for someone who hasn't had the opportunity to read the manual that goes with the OSF - I can't find a link to the PDF manual at the mo but this is an example of what it says:
59518

59519

What I'm suggesting is that there are two power levels in each setting that are chosen according to how hard you pedal. It gives the impression that the harder you pedal, the more power you get, but it's not proportional. Check yours again, especially in level 4 to see if you can feel the step in power.
Fair enough, I will try what you say over the next couple of days - these days I only use PAS level 1 so I'd better hang on in level 4!

PS - what sort of cadence to ride at?
 

saneagle

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A fair comment for someone who hasn't had the opportunity to read the manual that goes with the OSF - I can't find a link to the PDF manual at the mo but this is an example of what it says:
View attachment 59518

View attachment 59519

Fair enough, I will try what you say over the next couple of days - these days I only use PAS level 1 so I'd better hang on in level 4!

PS - what sort of cadence to ride at?
Again, it doesn't say that powern is proportional to pedal torque within a level. You'd have to look at the code to see if it is or not. Mine definitely isn't. That's all I can say.
 
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Sturmey

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Again, it doesn't say that powern is proportional to pedal torque within a level. You'd have to look at the code to see if it is or not. Mine definitely isn't. That's all I can say.
I have the 1999/2000 TSDZ2 36v version with standard original manufacturers software. I have always blamed my perhaps weaker legs for finding the torque sensor unsatisfactory and my necessary use of the throttle to compensate.
There is stuff on line about mechanically calibrating the torque sensor but I have not tried it so I am not sure how well this can be done with the original manufacturers firmware.
https://github.com/elem01/V-0.19/blob/master/How-to-calibrate-the-torque-sensor.mediawiki
 
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Az.

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I have the 1999/2000 TSDZ2 36v version with standard original manufacturers software.
Changing software is much easier IMO. Even a 7 years old girl can use TSDZ2.

 

saneagle

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I have the 1999/2000 TSDZ2 36v version with standard original manufacturers software. I have always blamed my perhaps weaker legs for finding the torque sensor unsatisfactory and my necessary use of the throttle to compensate.
There is stuff on line about mechanically calibrating the torque sensor but I have not tried it so I am not sure how well this can be done with the original manufacturers firmware.
https://github.com/elem01/V-0.19/blob/master/How-to-calibrate-the-torque-sensor.mediawiki
As I said before, my belief is that there are two power levels for each of the 4 pedal assist levels. You get some power (maybe 50% of the max for that level) as soon as the torque sensor detects pedalling, and a higher level (probably 100% of the max for that level) when you exceed a pedal torque threshold. Any calibration only sets the trigger points for those two events. It's possible that the algorithms are more complicated, but I can feel that the way I've just explained it is the main effect of the standard software that I have.
 
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Sturmey

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As I said before, my belief is that there are two power levels for each of the 4 pedal assist levels. You get some power (maybe 50% of the max for that level) as soon as the torque sensor detects pedalling, and a higher level (probably 100% of the max for that level) when you exceed a pedal torque threshold. Any calibration only sets the trigger points for those two events. It's possible that the algorithms are more complicated, but I can feel that the way I've just explained it is the main effect of the standard software that I have.
I think its worthwhile and seems simple enough to do a test on the torque sensor (even with original manufacturer firmware), if for no other reason than to note it for later reference. It took me 10 minutes with a luggage (20kg) scale. My te reading is 92 and tei is 104 @5Kg, 122 @ 10Kg, 143@20 kg and 180 standing hard on the pedal. Getting into menu in my case similar to as described by 'grecoa' below. What the different versions/revisions of firmware does with these readings is another story but in my case assistance seem linear and proportional to the pedal pressure when riding the bike. (but perhaps not strong enough)

Help please, TSDZ2 problem... | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community
 
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saneagle

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I think its worthwhile and seems simple enough to do a test on the torque sensor (even with original manufacturer firmware), if for no other reason than to note it for later reference. It took me 10 minutes with a luggage (20kg) scale. My te reading is 92 and tei is 104 @5Kg, 122 @ 10Kg, 143@20 kg and 180 standing hard on the pedal. Getting into menu in my case similar to as described by 'grecoa' below. What the different versions/revisions of firmware does with these readings is another story but in my case assistance seem linear and proportional to the pedal pressure when riding the bike. (but perhaps not strong enough)

Help please, TSDZ2 problem... | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community
Yes, any torque sensor by definition will give an analogue output. The question is what does the controller do with the input it gets from it?
 

sjpt

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any torque sensor by definition will give an analogue output.
I don't quite agree. Torque is by definition analog, but a torque sensor is not by definition analog. I can imagine a mechanical sensor giving a discrete output, for example by pressing down over a series of ever stiffer flaps. (Of course an analog sensor can give a digital signal via D/A converter, but that isn't what I mean.)

Maybe controllers are (almost) always designed to use an analog voltage as torque input; Saneagle will know much better than I do if that is so.

But I absolutely agree with his main point: what matters is how the controller uses the torque input.
 

saneagle

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I don't quite agree. Torque is by definition analog, but a torque sensor is not by definition analog. I can imagine a mechanical sensor giving a discrete output, for example by pressing down over a series of ever stiffer flaps. (Of course an analog sensor can give a digital signal via D/A converter, but that isn't what I mean.)

Maybe controllers are (almost) always designed to use an analog voltage as torque input; Saneagle will know much better than I do if that is so.

But I absolutely agree with his main point: what matters is how the controller uses the torque input.
Microprocessors generally have two types of input:
1. Digital - 0v or 5v, can be used for logic.
2. Analogue - continuous 0v to 5v, has to be converted within the processor to a digital value using an A to D converter.

I've played with some microprocessors that had a derived digital input called pulsing. There must be some sort of pre-logic in the processor that converts the 5v pulse into a digital on/off signal. There are probably a load more derived signals to make programming easier.

The logic in the programming can do anything it wants with those inputs. The problem with responding to analogue inputs is instability, where you get overshoot and resonance problems, which require quite a lot of code to bring under control. That's one reason why I believe that power is stepped according to the torque sensor input rather than proportional. The question is how many steps. I'm pretty sure that my TSDZ2 has two steps.

It's difficult to evaluate because of the effect of your own pedalling. Rather than talk in torque figures, I'm going to approximate with power because it'seasier to understand the numbers. Let's say for each level there are two steps with a stepping up threshold of 100w pedal power and you're on level 1. Below 100w pedalling, you get the low motor power and above 100w, you get higher motor power. And the two steps in motor power are 50w and 100w on level 1.

When you pedal at 50w, you get 50w from the motor, making 100w total. If you increase you pedalling to 70w, you get 70 +50 = 120w, so it feels like you're getting more power, which is true, but the motor isn't giving more. When you pedal at 99w, you get 149w. Therefore, when you pedal harder, you get more power, and it feels proportional to your pedal power, but the motor isn't increasing its power.

When you cross the threshold at 100w pedal power, the motor steps up its power to 100w, so you get 200w total. The difference between 149w and 200w is still not really enough to feel the step when you're on level 1; however, on level 4, that jump in motor power is something like 250w to 500w, which means that the change in total power is from 349w to 600w, so can be easily felt, and it's a bit like an on/off switch.

Everything I feel with my TSDZ2 matches this theory. You can feel the step in level 3 too, but it's on level 4, where it's very noticeable and wakes you up to being able to detect it on the other levels, once you know it's there. I think the above explains why people think their TSDZ2 power is proportional to pedal force when it isn't. If you have one, try it again after reading this and let us know what you think.
 
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Woosh

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We discussed the torque to power code in the toseven thread. The sensor's output is analogue. You can find the code in the thread.
 
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saneagle

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We discussed the torque to power code in the toseven thread. The sensor's output is analogue. You can find the code in the thread.
Nobody is disputing that. The question is about what the controller does in response to the analogue signal. It 100% does not give a proportional output. The only bike I've ridden that gave what felt like a proportional output was the old 26v Panasonic motor, which was terrible because you got a surge of power each time you pressed on the pedal. Not even Bosch has proportional power. It doesn't work.
 

Woosh

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It's been more than a year ago. I can't remember the code but if you use OSF, you can program it exactly how you like.
 
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sjpt

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If you have one, try it again after reading this and let us know what you think.
Thanks for that interesting detail.
We've got two rather different systems. An XF07 with Lishui controller (which seems to be a hybrid of speed and current control) and an older Bosch (gen 2) setup. The Lishui has a PAS but no torque sensor. The Bosch torque sensor seems to work more smoothly than you are suggesting for the TSDZ2 ; I will explicitly think about it next time I'm riding.

The Bosch has a slightly odd takeup at the low end of the torque scale; you can feel a mechanical change where it gives no support below some level. If you ride just on that level you get a little clunking in and out, but the level is so low that even I don't ride that lazily.
 

Percypig

Finding my (electric) wheels
Aug 3, 2024
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Just been out for a quick 20 mile ride and experimented with pedalling effort. I am almost certain now that there are two steps of assistance from the torque sensor on this TDSZ8.

Just turning the pedals slowly gives you a low level of assistance but as soon as you put some effort in, the assistance ramps up to a more powerful second level. I like the way it encourages you to the extra effort in.
 

Bikes4two

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...................Check yours again, especially in level 4 to see if you can feel the step in power.
And back in your post#19
As far as I can figure out, it has two power levels for each setting on the LCD. You get a low level of power as soon as you press the pedal, and a higher level when you cross some torque threshold. The higher the pedal assist setting, the more you can feel/see it.
  • As I promised up thread I went out for a short 15 mile breeze today, including some mild hilly bits, to guage how the bike felt in assist Level 4.
  • I most dilligently attempted to see if the way you described your experience of power delivery (two power levels etc) was the way power delivery felt for me, but it did not.
  • Several times on flat, mild inclines and steeper inclines, I rode at and maintained speeds of approximately 8,10,12 and 14 mph (my max is set to 15.6mph) and the power delivery felt proportionate to my own efforts and not in 'two levels' as you feel it.
  • Of course our motors may be working the same but our perceptions of the power delivery method different, and most certainly from your post #33, your understanding of these type of systems is way way above my very limited knowledge.
  • Alternatively your motor's torque sensing system may be working differently to mine?
  • In @Sturmey 's post #26 he mentions and links to articles about calibrating the torque sensor output (an analogue signal) to be more linear as it seems that some torque sensors are not great (as in linear). Such manufacturing variations could be such that very poor torque sensors make it into the market place and maybe you have one of these?
  • Have you taken your argument/theory to the Endless Sphere forum for debate as I'm sure the OSF community could provide some useful comment and insight into how the torque sensor is programmed to deliver power?
  • As you said before, fitting a power meter to the battery supply may give a better insight into what's is going on and if one had a set of those very expensive power measuring pedals that keen roadies use (eek £££s), an even truer picture of power delivery could be made.
  • I supose the bottom line is, is the rider happy with how their TSDZ2 works and I do fall into that bracket.
 
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