Thumb throttle

[tringmotion]

If you don't want to research, don't use a throttle. The rest of us will continue to use our throttles, knowing that we're legal.

I had to gain access to a PC
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482015/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles.pdf

The top of page 3 states what I have said.
I did 6 months of investment and investigation and I worked in the motor industry on vehicle conversation, so bluntly, I know what I am talking about.
The law is clear, any bike imported after 1/1/16 needs type approval for twist and go as it's a different class of vehicle it applies to used bikes as well.
Enforcement, however is extremely unlikely as the police have neither the staff, knowledge or public interest at present to do anything practical.
That is until some muppet on a 1500w downplated bike doing 30mph on a throttle kills a pedestrian. Then the Daily Mail no doubt will start one of their "campaigns" and make life difficult for everyone.
I am interpretating the law as it's presented to me and from the advice given by the VCA. They acknowledged that it's legally untested (2015) and suggested taking legal advice. Is that worth it for a £55 test certificate?
For me, it's not economically viable to continue with the system and all the major brands have taken the same view.

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[tringmotion]

Okay for all those who think it's OK to change a vehicle class, if you deristrict a moped to do 50mph and rode it on a moped licence and insurance is that OK?
What is OK is adding a tow bar, for example, as this does not change the class of vehicle. Fit one to a 3.5t van and don't fit a tachograph, you are open to prosecution as the vehicle class is changed while towing.
As I said previously, prosecutions will be unlikely, until the police are instructed on public interest grounds.


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[LeighPing]

There's terror on the streets of europe. I might be needing that thumb throttle to hang tail outta there!

 

[Alan Quay]

There was a discussion on this subject about 12 months ago, and basically there's a loophole for DIY bikes.

One could argue that if you modify a commercially available product (by adding a throttle for example) then it becomes a DIY bike.

Either way, The DFT have previously stated that they will not prosecute individuals for using a throttle.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/26089/&share_tid=26089&share_fid=19542&share_type=t

I had to gain access to a PC
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/482015/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles.pdf

The top of page 3 states what I have said.
I did 6 months of investment and investigation and I worked in the motor industry on vehicle conversation, so bluntly, I know what I am talking about.
The law is clear, any bike imported after 1/1/16 needs type approval for twist and go as it's a different class of vehicle it applies to used bikes as well.
Enforcement, however is extremely unlikely as the police have neither the staff, knowledge or public interest at present to do anything practical.
That is until some muppet on a 1500w downplated bike doing 30mph on a throttle kills a pedestrian. Then the Daily Mail no doubt will start one of their "campaigns" and make life difficult for everyone.
I am interpretating the law as it's presented to me and from the advice given by the VCA. They acknowledged that it's legally untested (2015) and suggested taking legal advice. Is that worth it for a £55 test certificate?
For me, it's not economically viable to continue with the system and all the major brands have taken the same view.

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[tringmotion]

There was a discussion on this subject about 12 months ago, and basically there's a loophole for DIY bikes.

One could argue that if you modify a commercially available product (by adding a throttle for example) then it becomes a DIY bike.

Either way, The DFT have previously stated that they will not prosecute individuals for using a throttle.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/26089/&share_tid=26089&share_fid=19542&share_type=t





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Well the police and CPS do prosecutions, not the dft.
I asked a direct question about supply of throttles and I was told I would be legally liable.
I think you are back to my point about the public interest requirements for prosecutions to be sought.
Anyhow, the original poster has a range of views to take into account for their decision.

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[Deleted member 4366]

I know what I am talking about.

..but you're not very good at listening! Read again what other people besides yourself have written.

How long do you think that we've been researching and discussing this subject?

 

[tringmotion]

..but you're not very good at listening! Read again what other people besides yourself have written.

How long do you think that we've been researching and discussing this subject?

Yes, because you are wrong in my opinion.
From what you are saying
1) the VCA is wrong , (who wrote the rules)
2) The government guidance is wrong 3)the head of ebikes at Raleigh(among many other industry people) is wrong


Etc.

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[Deleted member 4366]

Yes, because you are wrong in my opinion.
From what you are saying
1) the VCA is wrong , (who wrote the rules)
2) The government guidance is wrong 3)the head of ebikes at Raleigh(among many other industry people) is wrong


Etc.

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I never said any of that. You obviously did not re-read what I or others wrote in this thread. I suggest again that you do that.

 

[Alan Quay]

Yes, because you are wrong in my opinion.
From what you are saying
1) the VCA is wrong , (who wrote the rules)
2) The government guidance is wrong 3)the head of ebikes at Raleigh(among many other industry people) is wrong


Etc.

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You are missing a very fundamental part of the picture here. All of that stuff applies if you want to sell an EAPC with a throttle, not if you want to modify your own EAPC for your own use, as in the OP's question.

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[tringmotion]

You are missing a very fundamental part of the picture here. All of that stuff applies if you want to sell an EAPC with a throttle, not if you want to modify your own EAPC for your own use, as in the OP's question.

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Okay well if I missed out some information then I will add it.
As of 1/1/16 bikes with a throttle have a different classification (L1e-A).
As the questioner is changing the classification of a vehicle used on the public highway it must pass the relevant testing procedures, which is type approval. So that would be either new or used as the class has changed.
I was informed that if I sold throttles for this purpose, where I knowingly knew that the purchaser had no intention to test I would be potentially liable for prosecution. Is that clearer?

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[Deleted member 4366]

I was told by an importer who was selling "250w" scooters with throttles that they didn't need type approval.

I was told by another importer that you couldn't have a controller that gave more than 14 amps because that breached the 250w maximum.

I was told by another one that his controllers were 7 amps because volts x amps = watts, and his bikes were 36v and 250W. He was an electrical engineer with 30 years experience, so he knew what he was talking about.

I was told by my mum, that if put my tooth under the pillow, the tooth fairy would come and change it for money. That was definitely true because I got the money and spent it.

 

[IR772]

Okay well if I missed out some information then I will add it.
As of 1/1/16 bikes with a throttle have a different classification (L1e-A).
As the questioner is changing the classification of a vehicle used on the public highway it must pass the relevant testing procedures, which is type approval. So that would be either new or used as the class has changed.
I was informed that if I sold throttles for this purpose, where I knowingly knew that the purchaser had no intention to test I would be potentially liable for prosecution. Is that clearer?

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Would that line of thought not extend to sellers of dongles ?

Shops that sell MTB's with no lights or reflectors fitted ?

Bicycle lights for sale that are not BS/EN approved ?

I think you were poorly advised as there are so many similar examples that show your case to be untrue.

Legal advice is just that. One persons view, obviously it could only be assumed until tested in court.

 

[tringmotion]

"Would that line of thought not extend to sellers of dongles ?"

Yes, I assume you are talking about power boosters, which are expressly illegal now

"Shops that sell MTB's with no lights or reflectors fitted ?"

There is no legal requirement to fit lights, it is illegal to supply a complete bike without reflectors, which is why bikes are advertised without pedals to be a kit and there's no legal requirements to keep them, apart from pedal and rear reflectors at night. Also the legal class of the bike is unchanged

"Bicycle lights for sale that are not BS/EN approved ?"

Well call trading standards, if you can find them. Probably easier to find the A-team

"I think you were poorly advised as there are so many similar examples that show your case to be untrue."

No your examples are nonsense and the advice came from the VCA who wrote the rules

Legal advice is just that. One persons view, obviously it could only be assumed until tested in court.

I had no intention of finding out. However the changes in vehicle class, which is key, are well documented how to do and I did for about a decade.



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[tringmotion]

I was told by an importer who was selling "250w" scooters with throttles that they didn't need type approval.

I was told by another importer that you couldn't have a controller that gave more than 14 amps because that breached the 250w maximum.

I was told by another one that his controllers were 7 amps because volts x amps = watts, and his bikes were 36v and 250W. He was an electrical engineer with 30 years experience, so he knew what he was talking about.

I was told by my mum, that if put my tooth under the pillow, the tooth fairy would come and change it for money. That was definitely true because I got the money and spent it.

There is definitely some guff there.
I was particularly amused by the supposed electrical engineer who really should know the difference between peak power and RMS

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[IR772]

"Would that line of thought not extend to sellers of dongles ?"

Yes, I assume you are talking about power boosters, which are expressly illegal now

"Shops that sell MTB's with no lights or reflectors fitted ?"

There is no legal requirement to fit lights, it is illegal to supply a complete bike without reflectors, which is why bikes are advertised without pedals to be a kit and there's no legal requirements to keep them, apart from pedal and rear reflectors at night. Also the legal class of the bike is unchanged

"Bicycle lights for sale that are not BS/EN approved ?"

Well call trading standards, if you can find them. Probably easier to find the A-team

"I think you were poorly advised as there are so many similar examples that show your case to be untrue."

No your examples are nonsense and the advice came from the VCA who wrote the rules

Legal advice is just that. One persons view, obviously it could only be assumed until tested in court.

I had no intention of finding out. However the changes in vehicle class, which is key, are well documented how to do and I did for about a decade.



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Oh well! At least I know now.

I am not at all interested but it just seemed that all the examples I gave were valid.

The dongle does not adjust the power, but allows the speed restriction to be overridden, not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but again plenty are available to buy and they certainly change the class. Been around for ages and not seen news of a prosecution.

Selling MTB's as a kit, if you buy one with or without pedals they still do not have front and rear reflectors, your argument as with the throttles, they do not have to be used just sold with the knowledge that they could be used and at night that would be wrong.

Trading standards are not going to do anything about lights, but again the knowledge that they could be used is the same as your throttles, if they are going to do nothing about the lights what would they do differently about your throttles

Any way it just seemed that there were lots of examples that changed class and did not change class that asked similar questions and had a very different answer.

 

[soundwave]

any bosch Yamaha ect bike will pull more amps and watts until it gets to the 15.5mph limit and cut off.

so going up hill you will still pull amps and watts over the 250w limit just you are under the speed limit.

just look at eddie pj rides he can flatten a 500w batt just climbing for 25 miles or less as is using all the power the motor/batt can give.

same with me with a dongle even tho i have no speed limit i can still drain a 500w batt in the same time as using around the same amount of power just im going faster.

martin at ebike shop is so called the uk leading suppler and he sells and fits dongles and even honers the warranty.

remember the dongle only removes the speed limit so if a kit bike is also able to do this via the screen and or controller it is the same thing.

 

[Alan Quay]

Okay well if I missed out some information then I will add it.
As of 1/1/16 bikes with a throttle have a different classification (L1e-A).
As the questioner is changing the classification of a vehicle used on the public highway it must pass the relevant testing procedures, which is type approval. So that would be either new or used as the class has changed.
I was informed that if I sold throttles for this purpose, where I knowingly knew that the purchaser had no intention to test I would be potentially liable for prosecution. Is that clearer?

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Still missing the point Of The OP's question. He didn't ask how you felt about selling him a throttle.

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[tringmotion]

Like I said before, prosecutions will only be done if it's deemed to be in the public interest.
Ultimately we are talking about a minor traffic offence and there's no money in the pot to fulfill the existing workload.
I suspect that if the cyclist who was prosecuted for killing a pedestrian recently was on one, there would be a witch hunt on.
One of the peculiarities of British law is that it's legal to sell something that is illegal to use, though if you knowingly sell it for it's illegal use you can be prosecuted!
The law is there, but as with many on the statute book it will just gather dust. Proving the guilt of an individual will be hard in many cases. The impression I was given was they will go after dealers first and for me the market is so small it's not worth fighting for.
Happy new year

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[soundwave]

all my vids are on you tube

 

[tringmotion]

Still missing the point Of The OP's question. He didn't ask how you felt about selling him a throttle.

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????

any bosch Yamaha ect bike will pull more amps and watts until it gets to the 15.5mph limit and cut off.

so going up hill you will still pull amps and watts over the 250w limit just you are under the speed limit.

just look at eddie pj rides he can flatten a 500w batt just climbing for 25 miles or less as is using all the power the motor/batt can give.

same with me with a dongle even tho i have no speed limit i can still drain a 500w batt in the same time as using around the same amount of power just im going faster.

martin at ebike shop is so called the uk leading suppler and he sells and fits dongles and even honers the warranty.

remember the dongle only removes the speed limit so if a kit bike is also able to do this via the screen and or controller it is the same thing.

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