Throttles and the other EU nations

[Ptarmigan]

I have been reading with interest the Kudoscycles "Throttles-please can you talk me through how you use the throttle on a typical ride. "
and I may be speaking out of turn here not having yet bought nor ridden an ebike (I am still reading and learning!)
but I wonder : if our european fellows have different requirements to us, (eg a mass of users living on the flats of Holland) and out-vote us on a european standard , then :

how complicated would it be for traders to offer EU standard eBikes with an optional extra kit throttle (to be fitted by the user) ?
Or even an off road version to an EU standard road eBike ?

EDIT I said "(to be fitted by the user)"
I should have said " to be fitted by the _infirm_ user that has little leg power"

 

[Geebee]

The problem is if fitting it makes the bike illegal and you then run into someone I suspect the consequences may not be to enjoyable.
I wonder what would happen if you were in an accident with a car and they discovered the bike was illegal?

I have 3rd party and injury insurance with my State Bicycling Organisation and it makes it clear that insurance wise I would not be covered if the bike was not legal.

Random, loosely associated thoughts as they occurred

 

[indalo]

but I wonder : if our european fellows have different requirements to us, (eg a mass of users living on the flats of Holland) and out-vote us on a european standard

Holland is pretty flat, I grant you, but there are lots and lots of very hilly regions across europe. I seem to recall a little range of hills called the Alps.....there's another known as the Pyrenees. To my knowledge, there has never been an outcry from our european cousins for the introduction of what we have, ie throttles, so how do they manage?

As I see it, we would do well to adopt the German model for ebike regulation and IF that means the end of the throttle, so be it. That loss would be outweighed by other benefits.

Just as an aside, it occurs to me that there is a far greater dependence on motorised chairs in this country than abroad. Is there some connection between that and the throttle issue?

Indalo

 

[jazper53]

I would like to know what are the reasons why independent throttles are banned in europe, are they more dangerous than standard pedal assist, and is there evidence to back up that, or do they not fit into some petty bureucrats idea of what a e-bike should be, if not that, then maybe the ban is commercially inspired

 

[Kudoscycles]

I have been reading with interest the Kudoscycles "Throttles-please can you talk me through how you use the throttle on a typical ride. "
and I may be speaking out of turn here not having yet bought nor ridden an ebike (I am still reading and learning!)
but I wonder : if our european fellows have different requirements to us, (eg a mass of users living on the flats of Holland) and out-vote us on a european standard , then :

how complicated would it be for traders to offer EU standard eBikes with an optional extra kit throttle (to be fitted by the user) ?
Or even an off road version to an EU standard road eBike ?

EDIT I said "(to be fitted by the user)"
I should have said " to be fitted by the _infirm_ user that has little leg power"

Its actually more complicated to fit an aftermarket throttle than you would think....the best of the Shimano or Tektro levers have little room adjacent to them such that fitting a throttle conflicts with brake or gear levers. In many cases we have to design a bespoke throttle to get round the levers.
A thumb throttle is simpler but inside the levers you need 6" long thumbs and outside the brake levers offer less leverage and/or you push the grips out 30mm.
On the cheaper levers it is easier.
Not as simple as it first appears.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I would like to know what are the reasons why independent throttles are banned in europe, are they more dangerous than standard pedal assist, and is there evidence to back up that, or do they not fit into some petty bureucrats idea of what a e-bike should be, if not that, then maybe the ban is commercially inspired

They conjure up images of 14 year old kids,winding open max on the throttle and pulling a wheelie down the middle of the high street-I respect in 99% of cases that is just not the reality but that is what is in the bureaucrat's mind when they make these decisions.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[morphix]

I have been reading with interest the Kudoscycles "Throttles-please can you talk me through how you use the throttle on a typical ride. "
and I may be speaking out of turn here not having yet bought nor ridden an ebike (I am still reading and learning!)
but I wonder : if our european fellows have different requirements to us, (eg a mass of users living on the flats of Holland) and out-vote us on a european standard , then :

how complicated would it be for traders to offer EU standard eBikes with an optional extra kit throttle (to be fitted by the user) ?
Or even an off road version to an EU standard road eBike ?

EDIT I said "(to be fitted by the user)"
I should have said " to be fitted by the _infirm_ user that has little leg power"

Are you saying for sale/use in UK, or in EU?

For UK we have the provision to use throttles still regardless of EU law, AFIAK.. for the EU, I think it wouldn't be illegal to either sell the bike with throttle attached or as an aftersale add-on..the law would come into effect if you used the throttle on the road, i.e. the emphasis is on the user not to break the law. But in reality, I doubt the police would even notice or pay much attention, providing you stayed within the 15.5mph speed limit.

 

[shemozzle999]

The way I see it is the the backroom boys have been very busy trying to work out how to appease both the EU and our home grown market but have not enough evidence to present to the EU to fight for outright decision to keep independant throttles.

Their interim answer to the problem is if you want to keep independant throttles then you will have to apply for type approval, imposing extra cost on the bike. This can be monitored by the number of type approvals issued.

So it is now down to dealers to seize a marketing opportunity to provide these and for buyers wishing to maintain this freedom to support them by buying them.

The other option is to cave in and accept the future restricted vanilla EU offerings.

The decision is yours.

 

[morphix]

The way I see it is the the backroom boys have been very busy trying to work out how to appease both the EU and our home grown market but have not enough evidence to present to the EU to fight for outright decision to keep independant throttles.

Their interim answer to the problem is if you want to keep independant throttles then you will have to apply for type approval, imposing extra cost on the bike. This can be monitored by the number of type approvals issued.

So it is now down to dealers to seize a marketing opportunity to provide these and for buyers wishing to maintain this freedom to support them by buying them.

The other option is to cave in and accept the future restricted vanilla EU offerings.

The decision is yours.

Or just ignore the silly EU law, carrying on using your road-legal 250W 15.5mph bike with throttle, and plead ignorance/cite old law.. in the unlikely event you do get stopped by a UK copper who knows the EU law and they enforce it on you.. what's worse could happen? Probably a small fine or telling off.. or worse case scenario, bike gets seized.

I think also, unless the police have physical evidence of you riding the bike without pedalling (i.e. CCTV or police camera) it would be hard to convict of any offence so they would be unlikely to pursue it..merely having a throttle on a bike doesn't constitute an offence in itself?

 

[flecc]

I would like to know what are the reasons why independent throttles are banned in europe, are they more dangerous than standard pedal assist, and is there evidence to back up that, or do they not fit into some petty bureucrats idea of what a e-bike should be, if not that, then maybe the ban is commercially inspired

It is quite simply that the EU law makers from the outset wished to keep an e-bike as close as possible to an ordinary bike, used by ordinary cycling methods, the intention being to avoid the need for any motor vehicle style regulation. We pedal to cycle, ergo, we should pedal to e-cycle. Using a throttle without any need to pedal is not cycling, it's using a low powered pedal assisted motor vehicle.

The basis is that one cycles with some added power, that's all. There are no age restrictions in mainland Europe, anyone who can ride a bike can ride a pedelec anywhere they can ride a normal bike. All this seems to me to be logical and sensible.

In Britain we independently did things stupidly as always. First we over-limited the power to a useless strict 200 watt maximum and over-limited the assist speed maximum to 12 mph, confusing the bike/motor vehicle issue by allowing throttles. Then when harmonisation with the EU made it necessary to change those, our law makers stupidly and unnecessarily added a 14 years lower age limit, as if 13 year olds never cycled at over 12 mph! Not only that, they added that afterthought age limit to a motor vehicle act of the type that e-bikes were supposed to be exempt from, instead of to the EAPC regulation where it belonged.

Sometimes I despair of Britain.
.

 

[eddieo]

type approval happens anyway for the HS bikes. So ...I would think initially a manufacturer with say a range of 6 bikes, would probably type approve one, and see how it sells.....That way the market decides, and not just a small emotive and probably unrepresentative survey

torque sensing bike @ £1300 OR identical with throttle £200 more? depending on volume etc...

The illegal riders are (how can I say this diplomatically) illegal anyway, so not sure why they are "bothered" to be honest...

 

[shemozzle999]

Or just ignore the silly EU law, carrying on using your road-legal 250W 15.5mph bike with throttle, and plead ignorance/cite old law.. in the unlikely event you do get stopped by a UK copper who knows the EU law and they enforce it on you.. what's worse could happen? Probably a small fine or telling off.. or worse case scenario, bike gets seized.

I think also, unless the police have physical evidence of you riding the bike without pedalling (i.e. CCTV or police camera) it would be hard to convict of any offence so they would be unlikely to pursue it..merely having a throttle on a bike doesn't constitute an offence in itself?

I am afraid, morphix, this type of attitude may have also infulenced their decision against indepentant throttles and now only type approved dealers will be able to insure regulation bikes will be sold. Law abiding independant home builders have now been restricted to the proposed vanilla regulations.

You might consider removing the "like" you gave me.

 

[GaRRy]

Or just ignore the silly EU law, carrying on using your road-legal 250W 15.5mph bike with throttle, and plead ignorance/cite old law..

Actually not strictly legal anyway at moment.

there are two conflicting laws in UK at moment

old UK law which is 200W with throttle allowed
current EU law which is 250W and no throttle

So strictly speaking 250W with throttle does not meet either law.

 

[morphix]

Actually not strictly legal anyway at moment.

there are two conflicting laws in UK at moment

old UK law which is 200W with throttle allowed
current EU law which is 250W and no throttle

So strictly speaking 250W with throttle does not meet either law.

Seems to be a very grey area then.. as most bikes are 250W you should probably assume the EU law applies.. so if you ride with a throttle you're not going to be able to use the old law as any defence.. but this is all academic I think..for most of us, the risk of being involved with the law is minute..if you ride safely and sensibly and don't get yourself pulled over by the police!

I wonder does the law specifically state that just the mere presence of a throttle on a bike makes the bike ILLEGAL to ride on the road unregistered/approved etc (since presumably the bike is road legal in every other sense)...

..or is it a case of, USING the throttle then makes the bike no longer road legal and/or the rider guilty of an offence (riding an unlicensed vehicle or a breach of the law on e-bikes)...assuming the police have camera evidence of you moving without pedalling on CCTV or their police camera, at a speed or in a manner which couldn't be considered coasting.. I imagine it would be quite difficult for the police to prove this in court in many cases, so if you did get pulled or spotted it wouldn't even get that far..

 

[Ptarmigan]

Not as simple as it first appears.

Thanks for your thoughts, yes, that is why I asked the question !

All this stuff about legality, what if you have an accident, how come peeps in the Alps manage etc&etc has all been well thrashed in other threads.

Are you saying for sale/use in UK, or in EU?

Ah yes, sorry, I was ambiguous, I'm always doing that !
I meant for us in the UK in the future if/when we adopt the EU law. ( we usually end up that way eventually)

 

[jazper53]

Actually not strictly legal anyway at moment.

there are two conflicting laws in UK at moment

old UK law which is 200W with throttle allowed
current EU law which is 250W and no throttle

So strictly speaking 250W with throttle does not meet either law.

Jesus wept I need to have a lie down, don't know if i am coming or going

 

[flecc]

So strictly speaking 250W with throttle does not meet either law.

And will always remain illegal after the law changes. The non-retrospective allowance will only apply to bikes that were legal before the change happens.

 

[morphix]

Just to complicate matters a bit more... I seem to recall some provision in the EU law which DOES allow the throttle to be used independent of pedalling, but ONLY to 6km/h? if the user is PUSHING the bike, not riding it?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So technically, you could argue (in court/law) that a bike which has a throttle fitted which is designed to work independent of pedalling is NOT illegal in itself? If the user obeys the law and only uses it as above.. heh. What you do on the road out of sight of the local law enforcement, is another matter.

 

[eddieo]

Oh Lordy.........

 

[morphix]

Does anyone have a "cruise control" button on their bikes? Heh.

I noticed the controller I just bought for my next conversion does have this feature.. two wires which when connected (i.e. via a switch or button) will automatically put the motor into a pre-set cruising speed!

I guess as far as the law is concerned, the same applies for cruise control as for throttles.. i.e if you're not pedalling, it's not legal to use it.