Throttles allowed?

When I'm out and about doing my bike repairs I hear a lot of interesting stories. The latest one goes something like this.

 

A large pizza chain wants to buy a very large number of ebikes for pizza deliveries. A known ebike supplier comes up with a proposal and explains the restrictions on throttles. The pizza company is adamant that they want throttles, so the ebike supplier writes to some government office and gets dispensation to supply bikes with throttles on the basis that it's much cleaner for the cities to use electric vehicles, and without throttles, the pizza company would have to use the alternative petrol scooters. The guy that told me thought that the ebikes were license exempt ones.

 

I have some more details regarding who was involved, but I don't think it's right to bring a private deal into public view. Has anybody else heard any more of the story?

The pizza company could use more powerful ebikes with throttles, and license and insure them appropriately. They would have to do that anyway with petrol scooters.

When I was down London I saw a number of rickshaw type things with big front hubs on them that were likely to be "illegal". They didn't have licence plates or anything like that, so it's either blind eye or they have sought special permission, probably the former tbh. Police don't seem interested in non conforming ebikes yet as noone is causing a nuisance with them. They are silent and most users are responsible, when this changes we might see a crackdown

When I was down London I saw a number of rickshaw type things with big front hubs on them that were likely to be "illegal". They didn't have licence plates or anything like that, so it's either blind eye or they have sought special permission, probably the former tbh. Police don't seem interested in non conforming ebikes yet as noone is causing a nuisance with them. They are silent and most users are responsible, when this changes we might see a crackdown

There was and still is a massive crackdown on illegal pedicabs in London. Those ones that you saw most likely met the minimum legal requirements.

As of a couple of weeks ago it has become legal to put a throttle onto an ebike. Type approval costs £55.00, we can arrange if anyone is interested in a Wisper with full throttle.

 

All the best, David

As of a couple of weeks ago it has become legal to put a throttle onto an ebike. Type approval costs £55.00, we can arrange if anyone is interested in a Wisper with full throttle.

 

All the best, David

Best news since sliced bread

"As of a couple of weeks ago it has become legal to put a throttle onto an ebike. Type approval costs £55.00, we can arrange if anyone is interested in a Wisper with full throttle. "

 

Does this mean a supplier/manufacturer would pay for approval of the first item and all subsequent sales would piggy-back this initial approval, so that the cost (possibly prohibitive if it would apply to each bike fitted with a throttle) could be spread?

Isn't a "walking/pushing" throttle at up to 6km/h already permitted under EU regulations?

As of a couple of weeks ago it has become legal to put a throttle onto an ebike. Type approval costs £55.00, we can arrange if anyone is interested in a Wisper with full throttle.

 

All the best, David

 

Can you give some clarification David?

 

£55 is the test fee for LIe-A type approval, and if it's that 15.5 mph low powered moped type, it needs registration, number plate, insurance and a group Q driving licence minimum.

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Isn't a "walking/pushing" throttle at up to 6km/h already permitted under EU regulations?

 

Yes under EU regulations, and also 4 mph under UK regulations.

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Maybe they were older bikes that had 'Grandfather rights' relating to full speed throttles being allowed?

The Cyclotricity front wheel 250 watt conversion kits come with a throttle. I've converted 4 bikes over the past 18 months or so for me, my wife and a couple of friends and all come with a throttle. My wife uses hers just to set off; I never used mine except as an experiment. We're all ageing (70++) very experienced cyclist who are using the electric push to help us to get up our Derbyshire hills (which I swear are steeper than they used to be) so we want to pedal as hard as possible and pedal assist is perfect for us.

 

I certainly think a throttle should be very limited in its use and shouldn't allow for unlicensed motor cycles (and I like motor cycles). There's nothing stopping a pizza delivery person from riding a pedal assist eBike.

 

There is a walking/pushing option on our bikes but walking at 6km/h is more like a trot! I'm not a slow walker but if I'm anywhere where I want to walk with my bike then 3km/h would be more appropriate (eg round a shopping area)

 

Geoff

When I was down London I saw a number of rickshaw type things with big front hubs on them that were likely to be "illegal".

 

These were probably the Heinzmann hub motor which usually are legal and a popular choice for cargo trikes and pedicabs since they are high torque. They are much larger diameter than our regular Bafang hub motors.

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Maybe they were older bikes that had 'Grandfather rights' relating to full speed throttles being allowed?

According to the story, the order was for a very substantial number of new bikes and the permission was given by an official government department, and they kept their exemption as pedelecs.

Can you give some clarification David?

 

£55 is the test fee for LIe-A type approval, and if it's that 15.5 mph low powered moped type, it needs registration, number plate, insurance and a group Q driving licence minimum.

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Hi Tony, sorry it took a while to get back to you on this point, it's been frantic here since the demise of FreeGo!....

 

The new class for Twist & Go EAPCs is called "250W LPM", a sub-category of the standard "Low Powered Moped", which is the category which T&G EAPCs fell into before.

 

The new edition of the test manual reduces the requirements somewhat for this new sub-category. For example, a kickstand is still required, but it does not have to auto-retract. Moped-like mirrors are now not required, etc., etc.

 

This is the advice from the BAGB.

 

The Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval test now includes a sub-category for "Twist and go" electric bikes, which require type approval before sale but which can otherwise be used like other 'normal' e-bikes. Fewer modifications will now be needed for these machines to pass the test and gain type approval. The MSVA test costs £55 per individual vehicle.

 

Each individual bike must pass the Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) test. This provides UK-specific type approval (i.e. it is not valid in other EU countries).

 

We are currently working on TA for five bikes, I will let you know how it goes.

 

This is particularly important to us as the new 48V 100Nm Wisper Wayfarer range with centre motor, to be officially launched later this year will hopefully be available with a full throttle.

 

All the best, David

[quote="Wisper Bikes, post: 488358, member: 181"

The new class for Twist & Go EAPCs is called "250W LPM", a sub-category of the standard "Low Powered Moped", which is the category which T&G EAPCs fell into before.

 

Thanks for the full information David, I rather thought this might be the case but didn't want to quote without confirmation.

 

Thankfully it now provides throttles once again on manufactured pedelecs and gives an advantage in some respects to our UK suppliers like yourselves, since Oriental suppliers will still be tending to supply in conformity with EU law.

 

I wonder if home builds will be able to take advantage, since SVA's can apply to them too. I would think so.

 

I look forward to seeing that new Wayfarer, it sounds exciting and would be ideal for many of the slightly disabled.

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Edited March 1, 20197 yr by flecc

The words in the last two posts still don't make it clear. Is a 250w LPM with throttle and Type approval an EAPC? In other words, are you confirming what I wrote in the OP?

 

If you're still reading, Mr Wisper, is that a 250W 48v 100 NM EAPC? I was chuckling at the thought!

Hi vfr!

 

I don’t think there was a special dispensation to allow EAPCs with a full throttle without TA.

 

The new Wayfarer range makes me smile too. They will be superb!

 

All the best, David

Edited March 2, 20197 yr by Wisper Bikes

The words in the last two posts still don't make it clear. Is a 250w LPM with throttle and Type approval an EAPC?

 

Yes. it is an EAPC and not a motor vehicle. Below is an extract of a reply received from James Brown, International Vehicle Standards section of the DfT:

 

 

Of course the rest of the EAPC conditions must be met, such as rated power of 250 watts and minimum riding age of 14 years.

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Question still not answered. I'll try again.

 

Is a 25 km/h 250w bike with pedals and a throttle and type approval an EAPC?

 

The bikes referred to in the OP had type approval as far as I was told.

 

Sorry Flecc, you ninja'd my post. Thanks for clarification.

Question still not answered. I'll try again.

 

Is a 25 km/h 250w bike with pedals and a throttle and type approval an EAPC?

 

The bikes referred to in the OP had type approval as far as I was told.

 

Sorry Flecc, you ninja'd my post. Thanks for clarification.

 

Yes.

Hi vfr!

 

I don’t think there was a special dispensation to allow EAPCs with a full throttle without TA.

 

The new Eayfarer range makes me smile too. They will be superb!

 

All the best, David

I only got the story second hand. The guy that told me that the company wrote to some government department and was given a reply that it was OK to use throttles on their bikes. They may have already had type approval to L1eA. If not, maybe they do now.

 

I hope you don't think I was laughing at your Wayfarer bike. I was only chuckling that we can have 250W bikes with 100Nm or even 120Nm. In fact there's no limit to the torque allowed. Why would anyone want a 1000w bike that only has 60Nm?

 

All the aguments about less-abled people not being able to use EAPCs has gone out the window now because they can have throttles and 100Nm, which means that they can go up any hill without pedalling.

Not at all vfr, I smile because I’ve been using the pre production model of the Wisper Wraith to get to and from work for the last few weeks. The difference between this bike and our first Wispers back in 2005 is dramatic to say the least. I’m still not convinced though that the centre motor is as good or better than our popular torque sensor controlled hub drive used on the Wisper Torque models, but I don’t have any steep hills to climb on my commute. I’m following trends set by Bosch and the bigger motor produces with this bike. Time will tell.

The reason I don’t imagine that the DfT would turn a blind eye to one company being allowed to use a full throttle is that it would set a precedent. And of course why would a pizza delivery rider need more assistance than someone with MS or other condition that makes the throttle so worth while?

 

All the best, David

I hope you don't think I was laughing at your Wayfarer bike. I was only chuckling that we can have 250W bikes with 100Nm or even 120Nm. In fact there's no limit to the torque allowed. Why would anyone want a 1000w bike that only has 60Nm?

I wish that all the suppliers give their torque figure as at the wheel.

Numbers like 80NM, 100NM, 120NM etc are misleading to the non-specialists.

How many bikes have a rear cog same size compared to the chainring?

Excellent point and one often overlooked. As you know they are completely different. Our 100Nm measured at the chain drive equates to about 55Nm when measured at the rear hub.

 

It’s a point I have no end of problems explaining to people when discussing our hub drives. For example, our 45Nm Wisper Torque hub motor has more torque than the Bosch CX (75Nm). If measured at the chain drive the Wisper Torque would be about 85Nm.

 

All the best, David

The torque at the back wheel varies depending which gear you're in and what the exact gear ratio is. It's also dependent on the wheel size. What's worse is that it changes with the motor speed to.

 

The only way of making it meaningful would be to specify what it is at the crank at a specified rpm. That still requires complicated calculations to get a comparison between different bikes and motors.

 

What's easiest to understand is power. A simple calculation of volts times amps will give you a good idea of how well your bike will go up a hill, however, nobody will tell you the amps for some reason. Maybe it's because 48V x 18A = 864W, which is a long way away from the perceived 250W limit.

Edited March 2, 20197 yr by vfr400