Those kits on e-bay.

[Everso]

Hi,

I joined here as I am soon going to be getting a KMX Cyclone (thank you cyclescheme) to commute to work. This is a 15 mile each way thing so I am looking for a little help with the hills. I did use to do this journey a year or so ago on my trice classic but since then I have had a knee operation and fallen terribly out of condition. All up weight (me, trike, luggage and assist) will be something like the 300lb weight limit.

Now I have seen plenty of kits on e-bay like these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1000W-48V-ELECTRIC-BICYCLE-E-BIKE-RETROFIT-KITS_W0QQitemZ170317882229QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL?hash=item27a7bca375&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1688|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

I am wondering are they any good? Money is a little tight - at least until the savings I make kick in so I need something that will do the job but if it only lasts a year or so - so be it. I can replace it with something more long term. I am ok with electrics and have been taking bikes apart since I was a small kid so something that needs help along the way is ok. I have also looked at the Currie electro drive as that seems a decent price as well.

I am only after help with the hills - speed is not an issue as I can shift it ok on the flat myself, after all I do want some exercise. If it crawls up a hill at only 5mph - that would be fine.

So - does anyone know anything about these kits on a trike or the currie electro drive also on a trike.

Look forward to hearing from you guys.

Everso

 

[eddieo]

Not very technically minded but it appears not to have a battery? and is probably illegal for UK use?

why not look at something more established like the Alien kit......at least they are complete as a kit and have a track record on here.

 

[Everso]

Not an option as it works on the front wheel - will not go on a trike

 

[flecc]

These motors are direct drive types, not internally geared. Direct drive types are more suited to speed but
not so good on hills, especially at very low speeds, since the motor only turns at wheel speed.

That said, if it is a genuine 1000 watt motor it will climb reasonably on it's brute force, but the downside will
be it's thirst for current meaning an average size 10Ah battery won't give much range, possibly under 10 miles.
The positives are that this is a simple type of motor and generally quiet in operation.

The Currie Electrodrive has been used on KMX trikes successfully and will do the job ok. It is a very old design
now though, not very refined and a bit noisy. They have suffered a few reliability problems too, mainly the odd
motor failing but also broken spokes due to the spoke attached transmission. Again the range is usually short,
but this time usually due to having lead acid batteries as standard.

Probably the best motor for your application is the Heinzmann, but it's very expensive so not an option for you
at present.
.

 

[Everso]

That said, if it is a genuine 1000 watt motor it will climb reasonably on it's brute force, but the downside will
be it's thirst for current meaning an average size 10Ah battery won't give much range, possibly under 10 miles.
The positives are that this is a simple type of motor and generally quiet in operation.

>I guess there is no way of knowing if it is true 1000W or not is there. The commute is 15 miles each way. I will be able to recharge at work so a 15 mile range is all I would need. That is assuming I don't do any of the work. I intend to only use it for hills - I guess about 3 miles in total so this part of it looks acceptable so far.


The Currie Electrodrive has been used on KMX trikes successfully and will do the job ok. It is a very old design
now though, not very refined and a bit noisy. They have suffered a few reliability problems too, mainly the odd
motor failing but also broken spokes due to the spoke attached transmission. Again the range is usually short,
but this time usually due to having lead acid batteries as standard.

> The weight on the spoke thing was a concern for me. The total set up will not be light. I am (or at least was) able to ride the hills on my own so am able to pedal when needed. I just want to not dread the hill parts so much. I am not even expecting the motor to pull me up the hill - just help.

Probably the best motor for your application is the Heinzmann, but it's very expensive so not an option for you
at present.

> Yeha - that's the dream ... but at the moment just a dream.

.

I would also be interested if you can recomend any kits that drive the chain and thereby get advantages of using the trike gears. Information on these seems to be hard to come by.

Everso

 

[flecc]

One chain drive kit that's been used on the KMX is the Cyclone, and member Ballparkcy has one kitted like this.
This kit normally needs a freewheeling chainwheel so the pedalling can stop while the motor still drives, but on
the KMX you can use an intermediate freewheel arrangement. Ballparkcy's is like this.

Here's the Cyclone Taiwan link

And here's a link to Ballparkcy's thread on this.

He would probably be happy to advise on any details you need to know.

The Cyclone is only average quality and needs some waterproofing added to avoid water ingess and corrosion,
but several members are using them in different applications.
.

 

[Everso]

One chain drive kit that's been used on the KMX is the Cyclone, and member Ballparkcy has one kitted like this.
This kit normally needs a freewheeling chainwheel so the pedalling can stop while the motor still drives, but on
the KMX you can use an intermediate freewheel arrangement. Ballparkcy's is like this.

Here's the Cyclone Taiwan link

And here's a link to Ballparkcy's thread on this.

He would probably be happy to advise on any details you need to know.

The Cyclone is only average quality and needs some waterproofing added to avoid water ingess and corrosion,
but several members are using them in different applications.
.

Ohh - now that looks good. Would it be possible to fit it without the freewheeling front cog? I realise that means the legs would always have to turn but the model I am getting has triple front cog and I did not see one on their site. If they did sell one there is also the cost thing ...

Everso

 

[flecc]

No, they don't make a triple freewheeling spider or chainwheel Everso.

You can run it without the intermediate double freewheel but that could only be done with the normal solo bike
motor with it's nylon idler to ensure the chain wrapped sufficiently around the motor sprocket. That can only be
done on the trailing chain run with the motor below the boom, leaving not much ground clearance. I don't know
if this caused trouble as it's certainly less efficient and the long chain run might cause problems with the
wrapping, possibly why they later created the double freewheel.

You could ask Paco at Cyclone about this, but meanwhile here's a KMX with the underslung motor and their
freewheeling chainwheel. You still couldn't use your triple chainring though, for obvious reasons:

 

[Everso]

Yeha - I did see that install picture. It looks prety easy to do. The only problem I can see is that the chain path does not have much space to allow for side to side movement as it moves from chainring to chainring. Mayby something like setting up so it was a straight line when on one particular cog (say the largest to reduce leg speed) and only applying poser when on that cog.

Do you see that working or am I missing something here?

 

[flecc]

You couldn't use the triple chainring, the chain would not be able to cope with that much twist over the short
distance from the chainring to motor sprocket and would probably jump the sprocket or break. It could even
damage the motor bearings.
.

 

[Everso]

You couldn't use the triple chainring, the chain would not be able to cope with that much twist over the short
distance from the chainring to motor sprocket and would probably jump the sprocket or break. It could even
damage the motor bearings.
.

I was afraid of that .... so how about this...

Set it up so a small chain goes from motor and round the inner small front cog. The front gears could then be set up to only operate on the 2 larger front cogs. This would take it from a 24 speed to a 16 speed and lose the low end - but low end is what the motor is for.

Or - look at mounting the motor behind the seat - that should leave plenty of chain lengh for every gear to be happy.

BTW - thanks for all your help with this. I know bikes/trikes well enough but this whole assist thing is new to me. I am hoping that I can get it easy enough to ride that my wife (recovering form a motorbkie accident) can ride it while I ride my trice classic and we are evenly matched.

Everso

 

[flecc]

That might be possible if you could get the motor aligned for the inner chainring, it should adjust that much in it's
mountings.

The second option of a solo bike motor to the rear of the seat isn't possible, remember it must drive on the lower
chain run so the motor has to be underslung, and I doubt there would be enough ground clearance. In addition
the chain would not stay engaged on the motor drive sprocket teeth without a nearby chainring holding it down,
so you'd need to add a fixed idler close by to fulfil that function.
.

 

[Everso]

The second option of a solo bike motor to the rear of the seat isn't possible, remember it must drive on the lower
chain run so the motor has to be underslung, and I doubt there would be enough ground clearance. In addition
the chain would not stay engaged on the motor drive sprocket teeth without a nearby chainring holding it down,
so you'd need to add a fixed idler close by to fulfil that function.
.

If it's not a silly question - why does it have to go on the lower chain run? If you look at picture 3 here

KMX Karts » Cobra

it looks to me like the motor could be mounted on the top chain run just behind the chain guide wheel/pully (not sure of the propper name). It would then pull the chain over the rear cogs and still provide the assist that way. The pully thing would also act as a nice guide sprocket to keep things nicly alinged.

Everso

 

[flecc]

If it's very close to the chainring as in that photo that can work. The important thing is not to have any longer
loose run from the motor to the top of the chainring since that could lead to the chain jumping off if under
motor drive without enough pedal effort to keep the chain between them taut.

Generally speaking driving the lower run after the chainring has less potential for trouble, though their double
freewheel with secondary chain drive is the best way of all of course.
.

 

[flecc]

Thinking about this a bit more, the top run motor mounting wouldn't be any good unless with the double freewheel
and dual chain setup. The reason is the small nylon idler which would be necessary with a clockwise motor to
wrap the chain around the motor drive sprocket. This idler would carry the full motor loading if mounted before
the motor or the full rider power if mounted after. Either way it simply isn't strong enough to be under load.

It's designed to run after the drive on the slack chain run, only providing the chain wrapping, and used under load
it would fail very quickly or twist it's small spindle off the housing. If they could be persuaded to supply a
clockwise motor with the more substantial sprocket idler, that could work. All in all it's best to stick with the
recommended design, and I note they are pushing the dual chain system more on their site now, with much less
emphasis on the older nylon pulley design.

But for the cost, the real answer on the KMX is to use their double freewheel system with one chainwheel and
use an SRAM DualDrive, putting all 24 gears at the rear wheel.

You can see how insubstantial that nylon pulley is from the photo below:

 

[Everso]

Ah - got you - that sadly makes sence.

So I am thnking it is between 3 options then.

1) small chain round the inner front cog. Sounds simple and with limited potential for chain slipping. Disadvantages are losing the inner ring to pedal with and no freewheeling.

2) those kits from e-bay If a genuine 1000W it does sound that pure brute force would pul it up the hill - especialy with help.

3) a Currie electro drive. I know it has it's issues but it seems cheap and after I have paid for the trike (the loan lasts for 1 year) I can then use the savings to get something better and more long lived. I am able to change spokes so even if this option entailed swapping the odd spoke every month or so - I can live with that for a year. It might even be possible to use parts of it (batteries - controller etc) to drive a more expensive hub motor with internal gearing and cut down on the cost of an upgrade.

This whole electric assist thing is certainly as complicated as I thought it was. Glad it is a few weeks before the trike arrives as it looks like a hell of a lot of investigation is still needed.

Everso.

 

[flecc]

I think no freewheeling could become both tiresome and awkward, so I favour options two or three.

A big enough battery to supply enough current for that 1000 watt motor could be a problem. If SLA (lead acid) it
will be very large and heavy, sapping much of the hill climb performance. If lithium it could cost as much as £400
or even more.

Overall therefore I'd say the Currie with it's more moderate size SLA batteries the most suitable as a low cost
temporary solution, and it's a proven application for the KMX. I don't think you could salvage anything useful for
a later upgrade, but you could sell the one year old Currie kit and recover some of the money.

As a permanent solution I'd either choose the full Cyclone double freewheel and Dual Drive gears setup or a
Heinzmann high torque rear hub motor.
.

 

[winterdog]

stupid thought 11172 but i wonder if you could get the wheels on a bile like this to tilt in to the corners like on the Piaggio MP3..

 

[Everso]

stupid thought 11172 but i wonder if you could get the wheels on a bile like this to tilt in to the corners like on the Piaggio MP3..

Not stuid at all. There are several wheel tilting trikes on the market. In general they tend to be heavy, expensive and complex. At the speeds a trike can go (I have hit 50 MPH downhill) they can generaly corner ok with enough leaning out the side. I have not heard of a trike falling over on a corner - though I am sure some have. Remember these things are very low - unlike a scooter - and harder to tip over.

Everso

 

[Everso]

Overall therefore I'd say the Currie with it's more moderate size SLA batteries the most suitable as a low cost
temporary solution, and it's a proven application for the KMX. I don't think you could salvage anything useful for
a later upgrade, but you could sell the one year old Currie kit and recover some of the money.
.

Well it was on my list as an option. Given the advice from more experienced people here I am thinking the Currie wins. When money permits a better drive the Currie can be moved to my old trike making them both assisted. Leaves me one as a spare incase of mechanical problems.

I have allways wanted to make a velomobile shell and I could do this with a second assisted trike. This is looking good.

Thank you for you help and putting up with my constant questions.

Everso