The UK Difference

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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In Northern Europe e-bike sales continue to boom, countries like The Netherlands and Germany measuring annual sales in hundreds of thousands. Their car markets in many cases are in the doldrums, consumers widely electing to keep their present cars long term.

It's just been reported that the UK car market has long been by far the strongest in Europe, having enjoyed continuous growth now for 30 months, while our e-bike sales creep up so slowly that no-one even knows what the annual sales are.

Depressing for those of us who ride bikes on UK roads, and it certainly illustrates how the UK and Mainland Europe occupy different worlds.
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KirstinS

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as mentioned a in aother thread perhaps the 2015 entry in the ebike market by Shimano will make a big difference here

And I know its only anecdotal evidence but I've seen a huge increase in my local area in ebikes. When I first started I saw one in 8 months. Now I see them regularly

Interestingly I'd guestimate that 50% of them are kits added on their owners bikes. So perhaps there are more ebikes than dealerships sales of complete bikes show ?
 
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flecc

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If the government had any sort of commitment to real green transport they would remove VAT from bikes.
They can't do that under EU rules unfortunately. Member States may only continue to charge zero rates in place on 1 January 1991. No Member State can introduce a new zero rate or reintroduce a zero rate once it has been abolished.

The most they can do is reduce the rate to 5%, but that only with the EU Commission's approval if no competitive distortion is judged to be likely.

But I don't think VAT is at issue, The Netherlands where e-bikes sell at more than thirty times our rate suffer 21% vat on them, higher than ours. Clearly that doesn't put them off. The fact is people have to be cyclists first to buy e-bikes, and we are not a cycling nation.
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Gringo

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we are not a cycling nation
To true.
Horse riders don't like us on the bridal ways, pedestrians find us a pain on shared paths, car drivers don't want us on the road and councils invent impractical cycle paths.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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My information is that the last year was a very good year for Ebike sales in the UK. I expect next year to be better again.
 

flecc

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Best estimates on the recent UK sales indicate roughly 1 per 2000 of the population. In The Netherlands it's roughly 1 per 67 of the population, so we've hardly much to celebrate yet.
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SRS

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They can't do that under EU rules unfortunately. Member States may only continue to charge zero rates in place on 1 January 1991. No Member State can introduce a new zero rate or reintroduce a zero rate once it has been abolished.

The most they can do is reduce the rate to 5%, but that only with the EU Commission's approval if no competitive distortion is judged to be likely.

But I don't think VAT is at issue, The Netherlands where e-bikes sell at more than thirty times our rate suffer 21% vat on them, higher than ours. Clearly that doesn't put them off. The fact is people have to be cyclists first to buy e-bikes, and we are not a cycling nation.
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Flecc you have said it many times before. "we are not a cycling nation"
I'd be interested to hear your views as to if and how we could ever become one.
 

VictoryV

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Flecc you have said it many times before. "we are not a cycling nation"
I'd be interested to hear your views as to if and how we could ever become one.
Years ago when Flecc & I were young there was a thing called the 11+ exam, and if you passed it you got a bike - at least that was the tradition (or bribe for hard study) as I understand it, so at 11 or so you had your first new bike, already having gained proficiency on a second hand bike. There were also cycling proficiency schemes, and if you got passed in that you had a flag on a small metal spike to fit to your handlebars - again more pride in performance. Also car ownership was much lower, my parents never had a car, so kids walked to school, or went on their bike - another status symbol. Bikes were an integral part of our early teenage life, all that has gone. I used to ride around the outer Liverpool suburbs in the summer evenings at the age of 8 covering 10 miles or so; I cannot see 8 year olds doing that now...
 
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Years ago when Flecc & I were young there was a thing called the 11+ exam, and if you passed it you got a bike - at least that was the tradition (or bribe for hard study) as I understand it, so at 11 or so you had your first new bike
The reason you got the bike was because the grammar school was too far to walk. No parents took their kids to school by car in those days. It was walk, or bike. Buses might have been a possibility, but money was much tighter in those days. Whatever the reason was for the bike, it certainly got you mobile. I can remember cycling a round trip of 25 miles to dig bait at Southend on Saturdays. I got 6s/6d (32.5P) for 100 worms from the fishing tackle shop, that always took an extra 50, saying that they were a bit undersize. At 12 years old, I didn't argue. That got me enough money to buy my tackle and entrance/train fare up the pier. What fond memories.
 

Kudoscycles

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We find that a large proportion of e-bike sales are not to dedicated cyclists,they are to people who want to have an alternative to the bus or car,they see the e-bike as a cycle with a bit of insurance-by that mean the electric assist guarantees they will get up the hill without undue sweat,whereas with a non assist bike it is just too much of a workout.
It was for that reason I have stopped attending the cycle shows,so many of the young testers see riding an e-bike as a fun joy ride with no intention of ever buying one. For us the better shows are the county shows or maybe the ideal home type exhibitions,they offer the opportunity of introducing the electric bike to people who have never experienced the fun of these bikes and often and quickly buy one.
The real shame is that younger people still want to go everywhere by car and until that part of the population see e-biking as a cool way to get around then it will always be a niche product-in Germany and Holland there is no stigma attached to e-biking,it's accepted by all ages as a means of transport.
It may be of interest that e-bike sales in China are falling,the increase in wider wealth is making car ownership affordable (see the traffic problems in Shanghai these days) and better metro systems in the cities is making the bike less useful,bikes are still viewed as peasant transport.
KudosDave
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Flecc you have said it many times before. "we are not a cycling nation"
I'd be interested to hear your views as to if and how we could ever become one.
The only comments I can make are to the past conditions that made us one. Some of them made others cycling nations as well, but not all can be repeated of course.

1) Novelty. The introduction of the safety bicycle led to it being quickly adopted by the upper middle classes for leisure, and they were emulated by the "lower" classes as bike prices fell and wages rose. That soon led to realisation that a bike could be transport as well as a leisure means. Of course we can't invent the bike again, so this is out.

2) The social changes after World War 1 and the leisure time they brought led to more time to appreciate the countryside, and this was coupled with demands for greater free movement into the countryside. The wealthy few had access with their motor cars, but the masses could also use their bikes to get out and about.

3) The costs and deficiencies of public transport drove greater use of bikes to a fair extent in the 1920s and '30s, but it was World War 2 with almost no private car use and increasingly severe shortfalls in public transport which pressured many into bicycle use as the only option for commuting. This situation continued into the 1950s as we slowly struggled out of the effects of war.

4) The availablity of affordable alternatives to only pedalling that appeared from about 1950 on was a negative factor, lifting people out of pure cycling into easier means. First it was the add-on bicycle petrol motor and the odd autocycles, then the scooter from the mid 1950s, then low cost small motorbikes and finally cars. As people became better off through the 1960s and '70s, they quickly took advantage of these availabilities and bicycle use crashed. In the northern mainland and some other parts of of Europe, the severe effects of WW2 meant a far slower recovery into personal wealth so their cycling wasn't affected so soon or as quickly.

5) Eventually conditions changed in the Netherlands for example, and they started to rapidly increase car ownership. However, that was so much later than here in the UK that their government was less occupied with struggling out of the war effects and more with running the country normally. They foresaw the dangers of widespead car use and acted immediately with a nationwide program of building good cycling facilities which successfully stopped the rapid cycling decline and even led to some recovery of bike use. It has to be said that was good fortune rather than just foresight, what was possible there in the 1970s was simply impossible for us in the 1950s and early '60s due to our war debts and other recovery needs, so car use became firmly embedded.

6) The terrain must not be discounted. The Low Countries, the flatter half of Germany and in Denmark are where utility cycling is most widespread, and that also leads to the marked difference in their cycling style. When the going is flat, it's very easy to just amble along on a bike at minimal effort, rather like the slight effort of slowly walking, so routine use of a bike in that way as an alternative to walking is not just viable, at 8 to 10mph it's much quicker than 3mph walking so an overall advantage. Flatter areas do lead to more cycling even here in Britain, Cambridge, York and the central and inner South London areas being notable examples of localised high cycling incidence.

Hills have the opposite effect, driven into the high effort to cycle up steep or long hills, those who remain cycling soon routinely apply more effort to all cycling, leading to higher speeds and an emphasis on the sport cycling aspect. The majority who that does not appeal to look for easement or alternatives. As we saw in the 1950s, the cycle add-on motor is seen as a partial benefit, but the wholly motorised vehicle is widely seen as a much better total escape from the drudgery of high effort cycling.

Conclusion: So what can we do?

1) The first thing would be to stop spending fortunes on measures that depress cycling, and in this case I offer a classic example in my area. I live in a major suburban residential area four miles south of the major employment and shopping area of Croydon. The 150,000 of us need to get into Croydon's centre at times, but between the two is a major hill obstacle, the Addington Hills of the North Downs, so a steep climb in both directions.

For years of lower population this was covered by buses and car use, but as my area expanded those were no longer wholly viable so a mass-transit tram system was created. To serve that a major bus-tram interchange was created at the heart of my area and special high frequency T bus routes to feed the trams from the residential areas, the fares included in the tram fares so effectively free. For example, on my T31 route, four single deckers circulate a circa 7 mile route from about 4.30am to well past midnight, most of the time nearly empty, just to conveniently feed the trams. My nearest stop is in sight of my home. not untypical for many.

Of course the costs of building this tram system and running it are vast, and to make matters worse, the Oyster Card scheme reduces the fares and all up to 16 years (or 18 in full time education) or over 60 travel free at all times. What impetus is there to cycle into Croydon, given the intervening heavily trafficked steep hill and convenient low cost tram?

What we could have done at far lower cost instead was to build a major cutting through that steep obstructing hill, accompanied by a top class two lane cycling facility in place of the tram route to enable fairly level cycling into town. The existing bus routes at lower provision levels would serve those who could not cycle. In town large covered cycle parking facilities could have been built to accommodate the incoming bikes.

Of course this is forcing a cycling increase by removal of alternatives as well as cycling provision, carrot and stick, but that is what's necessary to change a culture. It's only with such revolutionary thinking that we'll change our current situation.
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Kudoscycles

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On another thread I discussed a recent holiday with my son (26 years old)who works out of Budapest. Together we had great fun riding these bikes on quiet roads(we met a car about every 15 mins),he absolutely loved the e-bike,I asked him whether he would use an e-bike back in Budapest.
His response was negative-too dangerous,the metro system is good and cheap,taxis are cheap and where would I store it. It was interesting that he thought the bikes were cool and had no negative stigma to using one,his objections were more practical than vanity.
In fact,he thought the mountain style bikes were quite macho.
KudosDave
 
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neptune

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An interesting post, flecc.Cheaper than a major cutting might be the device I have seen on the Continent, a sort of escalator for bikes. It runs alongside the road, and you stick your foot on it. It drags you along for a free ride.

As you say, terrain plays a big part. South Lincs is as flat as Holland. Here in Boston we have gridlocked traffic like you would not believe, and little if any cycle infrastructure. There are lots of cyclists. Pavement/footpath cycling is widespread. The Council refuse to invest in cycling infrastructure.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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An interesting post, flecc.Cheaper than a major cutting might be the device I have seen on the Continent, a sort of escalator for bikes. It runs alongside the road, and you stick your foot on it. It drags you along for a free ride.
Yes, they are an alternative for short hills, but I think with our huge catchment area population a cutting would be a better option, That's particularly since the hill on the northern flank is so long, a mile or so too long for a viable escalator.
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oigoi

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Apr 14, 2011
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The considered and planned cycle routes that have been identified by Sustrans are, in my opinion, vey under publicised. The routes that have been identified and well signposted in my area (west cornwall) are beautiful, quiet roads that have turned my morning commute from sitting in busy traffic to a lovely journey down quiet leafy lanes. And yet for quite some time I have lived here completely unaware of them!

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map/national-cycle-network
 
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Hugh

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Sep 22, 2009
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The reason you got the bike was because the grammar school was too far to walk. No parents took their kids to school by car in those days. It was walk, or bike. Buses might have been a possibility, but money was much tighter in those days. Whatever the reason was for the bike, it certainly got you mobile. I can remember cycling a round trip of 25 miles to dig bait at Southend on Saturdays. I got 6s/6d (32.5P) for 100 worms from the fishing tackle shop, that always took an extra 50, saying that they were a bit undersize. At 12 years old, I didn't argue. That got me enough money to buy my tackle and entrance/train fare up the pier. What fond memories.

For tuppence more than the worms you could have bought a single record - 6/8d. That's where all my money went when I were a lad - more fond memories of Stones, Yardbirds, Kinks, Animals et al. :)
 

neptune

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There can be no doubt that Sustrans has achieved great things. Often though, their routes are much better suited to leisure riding than commuting or shopping/business trips. I know my eyesight is poor, but I feel that their signs could be bigger and bolder.

National cycle route number one passes through Boston. Signs within the town are non existent. OK, it gives people a chance to explore Boston, but is inconvenient to people passing through. In the past I have actually got my bike out to escort them through! Talking of the price of records, I actually broke a record belonging to a school friend. He had only just bought it. I had to forego school dinners for a week to save the money to buy him a new one. At the time, it was the only way i could raise the money.
 

SRS

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Nov 30, 2012
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Flecc

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Most informative and interesting.
Your last paragraph sums it up. Force the issue. Question is, who's got clout and will to implement it.