The more I search the less I know

[Kudoscycles]

Trex.....in my old sailing days when the wind dropped we used to say go for a cup of tea before shaking out a reef,it gave a chance to think about things before reacting,a storm could be building after the lull.
I strongly suggest that you go for a cup of tea before responding to a posting,do your homework,think, then respond-it will avoid the errors you make on so many postings.
I am sure you are a well meaning guy,clearly a Woosh convert to the exclusion of all else,but you make claims that you have no substance to support.
2 years ago this forum talked of nothing else than crank drive and I was about to convert our whole range to crank drive but then I rode a BPM motored bike at the Suzhou Bafang factory,it was a revelation,the low speed torque was so powerful. At that moment I changed tack (sorry can't get out of nautical terms) and developed the Kudos performance range,all BPM hub drive,sometimes you just get lucky!
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Yep,I haven't built a bike for a 30 stone guy! I think it would be a BPM -CST motor,perhaps in the front,so that we could put the Nuvinci hub in the rear.
KudosDave

 

[Beardedave]

Thanks Dave, will do!

 

[trex]

the 8-Fun BPM motor was introduced in 2011 or 2012, so it's not new.
What's new is the way manufacturers interpret EN15194 and use the poorly defined 'nominal power rating' to push for higher assistance. BH started the race for legal kits with ever higher power. personally, people buy whatever suits their need but I feel it's wrong saying that hub motors (BPM) are better climbers than crank drives. To me, crank drives are more efficient at using power on hills where hub motors are vulnerable to stalling and overheating. If you race an BBS01 or a TCM 18A against a BPM, I know which one is faster on any kind of roads.

 

[Geebee]

Kudosdave, are the bpm motors much more powerful than the Ezee?
If not a Tonaro crank drive will out climb them with an 86 kg rider, this is not using much rider input which is the only real way to compare motors ability anyway.
If you can pedal with a decent output the hub would climb most hills and faster but not when un-assisted/ low assistance.

A newbie would find a hub easier to start with as long as you ignore tube changing, and the pas taking you to full speed at cut in, etc. But I find a crank drive with pas more satifying and bike like, plus you can use decent wheels with QR's and the weight is in the right place.

 

[trex]

two things put me off hub motors: I feel the motor vibrations in my wrists (front hub) or back (rear hub) when the motor is running and unpleasant gyroscopic effect when pedalling without power or cornering. My BBS01 feels balanced and surefooted even on hard MP+ tyres.
After you try a few bikes, you'll come to ask yourself the question: do you want a BPM electric motobike or a crank driven pedelec.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

No one type of motor is better than the other. What ultimately decides on how much help you get up hills is the power of the motor, which in simple terms is volts x amps.

Power used to be limited by batteries on OEM bikes. A couple of years ago 15 amps was about the max for most. Now we have batteries capable of providing 30 amps, so obviously a motor capable of handling that type of current will be much more powerful. Bikes like the BHEmotion Neo, Ezee, and others that have large hub-motors are running at around 20 amps, so they have 33% more power than the 15 amp smaller hub-motors. The BPM can safely manage 30 amps, so has a lot more power potential than what we're seeing on OEM bikes.

Hub motors can be designed for anything. A low-speed wound one can climb a hill like a tractor, or one wound for high-speed can spin as fast as you want, although, generally, you can't have both. So you can't say a crank drive climbs better or is faster. You can only compare discrete motors one to another.

A BBS02 at 48v and 25 amps will go very well. It'll power up any hill. A BPM hub-motor also with 48v 25 amps will also have massive power and torque regardless of its winding speed. I would imagine that they'd be fairly evenly matched, although the BPM will be much easier to manage. The BBS02 in bottom gear makes so much torque that you can't control the bike. It'll wheely and threaten to snap the chain. You have to abandon the first two or three gears, which sort of defeats the object of having a crank drive.

 

[trex]

woosh are going to have BBS01 18A in a few weeks.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit
The BBS have very little PAS overrun. I think it'll go well with their new 15AH bottle battery.

 

[oldtom]

I find a crank drive with pas more satifying and bike like, plus you can use decent wheels with QR's and the weight is in the right place.

Much as I like my hub-driven bikes, I'm bound to say I agree with that view about crank-drives. I'm sure we will see further development of high-output, small, low-weight crank motors in the future allied to greater use of centrally-mounted battery packs.

Tom

 

[Geebee]

woosh are going to have BBS01 18A in a few weeks.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit
The BBS have very little PAS overrun. I think it'll go well with their new 15AH bottle battery.

Will it be marked 350w or 250w?
As wattage wise it would be within the range of current 250W hubs.

 

[trex]

the woosh website doesn't say. I assume they just sell them as they come, probably like this one from BMSBattery

BMS sell it for $380, Woosh sell it for £349.

http://www.bmsbattery.com/central-motor/629-48v350w-bbs01-bafang-central-motor.html

 

[Kudoscycles]

Kudosdave, are the bpm motors much more powerful than the Ezee?
If not a Tonaro crank drive will out climb them with an 86 kg rider, this is not using much rider input which is the only real way to compare motors ability anyway.
If you can pedal with a decent output the hub would climb most hills and faster but not when un-assisted/ low assistance.

A newbie would find a hub easier to start with as long as you ignore tube changing, and the pas taking you to full speed at cut in, etc. But I find a crank drive with pas more satifying and bike like, plus you can use decent wheels with QR's and the weight is in the right place.

Gee bee, the following is my personal opinion having ridden many bikes at various shows but I am only a normal cyclist,but in some respects that is useful because I think my age and profile matches that of many of my customers.
We do seem to place too much emphasis on hill climbing ability,there is what I call rideability....how nice overal is the bike to ride.
However,IMHO....I think the hill climbing ability is now divided into 4 groups.
1) Hub drive 24v motors...these were very popular 5 years ago but recent developments make 24v bikes feel very underpowered,generally a cheap buy now.
2) Hub drive 8-fun and TCM crank....these seem about equally matched,getting the bike weight down to low 20 kg seems to improve the rideability,these are the mainstream of all the bikes less than £1000,they seem to have ok hill climbing ability provided you are not too heavy and that your terrain is not too hilly,what says it all is that the 8-fun motor is still the most popular motor type used in Holland.
3) The Bosch crank drive motor....do have good hill climbing ability but you do have to ride them like a normal bike,you have to make sure that you are always in the right gear to get the best out of them,but a very satisfying bike to ride,my favourite bike overal is the Bosch motored KTM 400 sport.
Bosch have done a good job with generation 2 of balancing power during gear changes to minimise momentum loss but allow a relatively smooth gearchange.
4) The BPM motored hub drives,the Tonaro crank drive and Panasonic hub motors,the Ezee motor.....these seem to be a quantum leap forward in hill climbing ability,the motors have low speed torque but also a wide torque range....Bafang engineers have done a good job in this respect...you can get away with being in the wrong gear and still climb the hill.....the first of these seemed to be the BH emotion bikes but now there are many similar.
Everybody at Redbridge this year commented that the Panasonic e-race KTM bike was the most powerful electric bike they have ever ridden,I agree,one of the Pedelecs members bought that bike.
But development moves on,I suspect that Bosch must be looking at competing with that Panasonic unit,they are one of the most arrogant and immodest companies I have dealt with,they won't want to be outdone for long.
Others may disagree,but I am only interested in the views of those who have actually ridden these bikes,not armchair opinionists!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[jackhandy]

Jackhandy - thats a very nice offer. You're near St Austell aren't you? I'd appreciate that!
Are rear hubs best for hills?

Not far from St. Austell - Drop me an email if you fancy a ride:
Cornish.alpine.ebikes@gmail.com
I don't sell bikes or kits, so don't let the email address frighten you

Rear hub puts all the extra weight over the back wheel, so the front can lift under power if you pull away hard - Front hub can get a bit skittish on uphills if the sueface is loose or slipper.

 

[Beardedave]

Well, thanks to everyone for providing so much info! I've dropped the isea of a DIY effort, for now - if I'm stung for customs as well as delivery the differential isn't enough for the hassle. I now feel drawn to two bikes - the Woosh Sirocco CD (crank) and the Kudos Tornado (hub). I'm not hooked on speed, an ambler rather than a racer, and I can pedal on the flat - it's the hills that turn me into an old man, riding or walking (so do steps, but I won't be riding up those!) I weigh about 73 kilos and want to be able to exercise without fear of getting stuck in the Cornish wilds. Any feelings about the 2 I picked out? Thanks again everyone!

 

[RobF]

Well, thanks to everyone for providing so much info! I've dropped the isea of a DIY effort, for now - if I'm stung for customs as well as delivery the differential isn't enough for the hassle. I now feel drawn to two bikes - the Woosh Sirocco CD (crank) and the Kudos Tornado (hub). I'm not hooked on speed, an ambler rather than a racer, and I can pedal on the flat - it's the hills that turn me into an old man, riding or walking (so do steps, but I won't be riding up those!) I weigh about 73 kilos and want to be able to exercise without fear of getting stuck in the Cornish wilds. Any feelings about the 2 I picked out? Thanks again everyone!

There are other things to consider apart from the motor and the drivetrain.

The Woosh has mudguards, chainguard, rack and integrated lights.

The Kudos is a naked bike.

Both have their applications, but I can't see how they could both suit you.

 

[Beardedave]

There are other things to consider apart from the motor and the drivetrain.

The Woosh has mudguards, chainguard, rack and integrated lights.

The Kudos is a naked bike.

Both have their applications, but I can't see how they could both suit you.

So does the Kudos if you add the "plus pack". How do you see their applications differing? I thought they were quite similar, apart from the position of the motor - obviously you know better. I joined this forum to gain just this kind of information. So thank you!

 

[RobF]

The Kudos is more of a mountain bike.

The plus pack adds a few bits, but not a carrier.

One could be retrofitted, depends how much weight you want to carry.

 

[Beardedave]

Hi Rob, if the Kudos is a mountain bike, what would you call the Sirocco? More of a tourer?

 

[RobF]

Hi Rob, if the Kudos is a mountain bike, what would you call the Sirocco? More of a tourer?

I would call the Sirocco more of a city/hybrid bike, but what I would call it doesn't matter.

What matters is which type of bike suits your style of riding.

The Tornado would be great for shorts-on fun riding on road or trail, even in winter if you don't mind getting wet or muddy.

The Sirocco is more of a daily bike - the chain guard means you can use it with long trousers - and the mudguards will help keep the rest of you clean.

Add the integrated luggage carrying capacity and the Sirocco is the more versatile bike.

Not quite so handy off-road, but will handle cycle paths/cinder tracks, which is about as off-road as most of us get.

 

[Geebee]

Dont get to hung up on what type of bike it is, is it comfortable do you like the way it rides, high enough power etc., mind you mud gaurds are great on or off road and I agree with RobF that a chain gaurd means being able to ride with any clothing or shoes laces and all.
I have been known to use the below on medium level MTB tracks, bikes are versatile unless you are into serious off roading.
Umm, with out the basket, but with panniers even off road.