The more I search the less I know

I am 61, have Rheumatoid Arthritis (knees ain't great) and live in Cornwall, a land famous for hills. I used to cycle to work, to the shops, for fun before I moved here and grew creeky.

It seems that I need a crank drive to cope with these hills but need a hub drive to allow me to stop pedaling when I need to. Is this true?

I have a budget of £800 to an absolute max of £1000, though that would smart! I have looked at GBK and BMSb and I could put together a nice bike using something like the Carrera Subway, though I would change the bars so they curve round a bit - better for my elbows, currently £229 in Halfords. Or I could wait for Woosh to get some more Santanas. But, hub or crank, please? Any ideas,

Cheers,

Dave

if you have troubles with your knees, the Big Bear LS is a good choice for your budget.

BPM motor, 15AH battery, Dutch style frame.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear-ls

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2014/bigbear-ls/mini/saddle.jpg

it's the crossbar Bear that is on short supply.

The LS Bear is not a big bike but still in that Dutch style, much more relaxed riding position.

You can ask for a low profile saddle post - with which at lowest setting, the top of the saddle is only 80cm above ground. Hatti can ride it and she's is not tall (about 5ft2 to 5ft3).

I like rear hub, bottle battery, sport bikes like the Sport TS but not good if you have big hills and dodgy knees.

Don't know if you have a bike,presently, that you'd be happy to convert:

If so, an Ezee kit copes well with the hills in the Cornish Alps.

I don't have a bike at the present, but theEzee kits look veryexpensive compared to the GBK and BMS ones - what's the difference?

And Trex, thank you, the BB does look good!

It seems that I need a crank drive to cope with these hills but need a hub drive to allow me to stop pedaling when I need to. Is this true?

No, either can be controlled with a throttle. There is a lot of debate about which is better for hills, but some of the modern hub drives (BPM/CST) can cope with most hills as long as you can pedal a bit or aren't too heavy.

I don't have a bike at the present, but theEzee kits look veryexpensive compared to the GBK and BMS ones - what's the difference?

The major difference, IMHO, is that we get excellent after-sales support from Cyclezee.

If you buy from gbk or bms you effectively buy with no warranty or support.

The price difference is not so great when you factor in delivery, vat & carrier's "admin fees".

I've no first-hand experience of the bpm/cst motor, which I presume is what you're considering, other than a couple restricted to producing 520w; whereas the Ezee mk2 motor is a real powerhouse on the local hills.

If you're interested, you're welcome to a blast up to Hensbarrow on mine.

If Ezee uk as the same as Oz you get a 2 year warranty on everything.

The Ezee has a lot of grunt

Jackhandy - thats a very nice offer. You're near St Austell aren't you? I'd appreciate that!

Are rear hubs best for hills?

The Kudos Tornado would be perfect for you,the combination of BPM motor plus torque sensor means you have the best hill climbing ability ,the torque sensor only requires you to turn the pedals,with little rider input,to get max power. Jack handy rode the Arriba at the Eden project and many local folk bought the Arriba down in your county.

If you read through this forum you will read so much about the never ending battle between crank v hub,crank drive should in theory be the best for hill climbing but in practise the BPM motored hub bikes are currently the best hill climbers,ask D8veh what he thinks,he is normally neutral

But the Tornado is £1095.00,a little over your budget,I am sure we have a couple of demo bikes that could meet your budget.

KudosDave

Edited July 5, 201411 yr by Kudoscycles

No, either can be controlled with a throttle. There is a lot of debate about which is better for hills, but some of the modern hub drives (BPM/CST) can cope with most hills as long as you can pedal a bit or aren't too heavy.

Mike,it's definitely the opposite to what you have stated. I took a day out to try some of the crank drive bikes that are at the London Electric Bike Company ,these included the KTM Bosch crank and Panasonic hub drive bikes and compared these with the Kudos Typhoon(the 29er version of the Tornado),I am 17 stone and not especially fit. The KTM Panasonic hub bike was the quickest and easiest up the hill,closely followed by the Kudos Typhoon,I rode the steep hill in Richmond Park with very little rider input on either the Typhoon or the Panasonic hub. The KTM 400 Sport (Bosch crank) was a very satisfying ride,not as powerful as the Panasonic hub bike but actually it was my favourite bike,however you did have to be in the right gear to get the most from it,it was not a bike for a lazy rider.

This raises a good point,there are so many facets to what makes a good bike,not just hill climbing ability which let's be honest this forum seems most concerned with. Jimod said that whilst his Typhoon is the strongest hill climber,his favourite bike is still his Kudos Tourer,but his wife's Woosh Santana does exactly what she needs.

At the moment hub drive is winning the hill climbing battle,I think that the 2 finalists up the Bristol Park Street race were hub drive,of the BPM genre.

But I suspect that at Eurobike we will see another generation of Bosch crank drive or maybe they will come out with a BPM type motor.

KudosDave

what makes the hub bikes strong hill climbers is the controller. The more current going through the controller, the more power the motor gives out, as simple as that.

It simply is not an easy comparision when you consider that the Bosch and TCM crank motors are given 14A-15A while the Panasonic and BPM are given 20A-22A. Crank drives are efficient hill climbers. A TCM running at 15A can hold itself up against a BPM running at 20A. Guess which battey will run out of juice first.

For a fairer fight, pitch the BBS01 18A against a BPM.

The table is easily reversed if you pitch the Pana/BPM against a BBS02 25A 48V monster.

Edited July 5, 201411 yr by trex

Trex,how do you know the KTM Panasonic is running 22 amps?

KudosDave

Mike,it's definitely the opposite to what you have stated. I took a day out to try some of the crank drive bikes that are at the London Electric Bike Company ,these included the KTM Bosch crank and Panasonic hub drive bikes and compared these with the Kudos Typhoon(the 29er version of the Tornado),I am 17 stone and not especially fit. The KTM Panasonic hub bike was the quickest and easiest up the hill,closely followed by the Kudos Typhoon,I rode the steep hill in Richmond Park with very little rider input on either the Typhoon or the Panasonic hub. The KTM 400 Sport (Bosch crank) was a very satisfying ride,not as powerful as the Panasonic hub bike but actually it was my favourite bike,however you did have to be in the right gear to get the most from it,it was not a bike for a lazy rider.

This raises a good point,there are so many facets to what makes a good bike,not just hill climbing ability which let's be honest this forum seems most concerned with. Jimod said that whilst his Typhoon is the strongest hill climber,his favourite bike is still his Kudos Tourer,but his wife's Woosh Santana does exactly what she needs.

At the moment hub drive is winning the hill climbing battle,I think that the 2 finalists up the Bristol Park Street race were hub drive,of the BPM genre.

But I suspect that at Eurobike we will see another generation of Bosch crank drive or maybe they will come out with a BPM type motor.

KudosDave

That's not the opposite of what I said. I said that modern hub drives go well up hills.

If you are 30 stone, don't pedal and want to climb 25% then it probably won't work.

My Bafang CST will fire my 18 stone up 10% hills without breaking sweat (it or me).

Dave,oh no not another Dave on this forum! If you make contact with Kudos on Monday I will seek out a best ex demo bike for your budget.

We ship out our bikes for free,but if you don't like it I will collect back for £25.00.

Dave

Mike,unless I am misreading your posting I thought you meant that the BPM motored bikes are ok,as long as you are not too heavy. My findings are the opposite-that crank drive is good provided you are not too heavy,but the hub drive will accept 'sir been weightlifting types'

Dave

Trex,how do you know the KTM Panasonic is running 22 amps?

KudosDave

did I say KTM P running at 22A? no, it's running at 46.8V - maximum Amps: 2C = 2 x 8.8A

from here (page 34): www.freebike.pt/v1.5/images/Cat/Cat2014_KTM.pdf

1boris reported on the BPM powered BH Neos this morning. You can always confirm the max Amps of your bikes, I reckon 20A?

Mike,unless I am misreading your posting I thought you meant that the BPM motored bikes are ok,as long as you are not too heavy. My findings are the opposite-that crank drive is good provided you are not too heavy,but the hub drive will accept 'sir been weightlifting types'

Dave

I guess I just meant that there are limits to everything.

Trex.....in my old sailing days when the wind dropped we used to say go for a cup of tea before shaking out a reef,it gave a chance to think about things before reacting,a storm could be building after the lull.

I strongly suggest that you go for a cup of tea before responding to a posting,do your homework,think, then respond-it will avoid the errors you make on so many postings.

I am sure you are a well meaning guy,clearly a Woosh convert to the exclusion of all else,but you make claims that you have no substance to support.

2 years ago this forum talked of nothing else than crank drive and I was about to convert our whole range to crank drive but then I rode a BPM motored bike at the Suzhou Bafang factory,it was a revelation,the low speed torque was so powerful. At that moment I changed tack (sorry can't get out of nautical terms) and developed the Kudos performance range,all BPM hub drive,sometimes you just get lucky!

KudosDave

Yep,I haven't built a bike for a 30 stone guy! I think it would be a BPM -CST motor,perhaps in the front,so that we could put the Nuvinci hub in the rear.

KudosDave

the 8-Fun BPM motor was introduced in 2011 or 2012, so it's not new.

What's new is the way manufacturers interpret EN15194 and use the poorly defined 'nominal power rating' to push for higher assistance. BH started the race for legal kits with ever higher power. personally, people buy whatever suits their need but I feel it's wrong saying that hub motors (BPM) are better climbers than crank drives. To me, crank drives are more efficient at using power on hills where hub motors are vulnerable to stalling and overheating. If you race an BBS01 or a TCM 18A against a BPM, I know which one is faster on any kind of roads.

Kudosdave, are the bpm motors much more powerful than the Ezee?

If not a Tonaro crank drive will out climb them with an 86 kg rider, this is not using much rider input which is the only real way to compare motors ability anyway.

If you can pedal with a decent output the hub would climb most hills and faster but not when un-assisted/ low assistance.

A newbie would find a hub easier to start with as long as you ignore tube changing, and the pas taking you to full speed at cut in, etc. But I find a crank drive with pas more satifying and bike like, plus you can use decent wheels with QR's and the weight is in the right place.