The lost Malaysian airplane

[tillson]

Rosters are drawn up so that a pairing of the same captain and first officer occurs as infrequently as possible. When you work with a comparative stranger, you have a tendency to adhere to operating procedures more closely and are less likely to shortcut them.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I have to say that I blame the CAA more than this co-pilot,who was clearly mentally ill.A great proportion of the fatalities over the last year have been due to suicide or possible suicide of a pilot. In some cases there is a question over the cause of the crashes but surely if there is a possibility of suicide and in most cases that is the most logical conclusion then we should spend similar efforts to overcome that we currently spend on preventing terrorism.
The co-pilot who flew out of Somalia who hijacked his own jet,scheduled for Rome but he diverted to Geneva and demanded political asylum,he locked the captain out of the cockpit. He safely landed the plane,but that event should have alerted the CAA to the risks involved,that guy could have crashed his plane just as this pilot has done.
Ok they have announced a 2 in the cockpit rule now,but if they had done so previously they may have saved a lot of lives.
The CAA had all the info available to them,the FAA and IAA smelt the coffee and responded quickly but it has overtones of 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'.

 

[Wicky]

Bring back flight engineers and bus conductors...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7176545.stm

 

[mike killay]

We could insist on having 3 pilots. Would not add much to the cost of a ticket.

 

[Kudoscycles]

We could insist on having 3 pilots. Would not add much to the cost of a ticket.

Mike,the jump seat in the cockpit is a small fold down seat,ok for occasional use but not suitable for every flight. The 2 pilot seems ok,they maybe should work less hours,2 sectors (flights) per day is enough.
Maybe the doctor of a pilot should by law inform the airline if there is any reason why a pilot should not be flying due to medical reasons...I don't think any pilot would object to that. Such an inform would be very rare it cannot be much of a cost penalty to either the doctor or the airline but so important in that rare situation.
Just common sense really.
KudosDave

 

[mike killay]

Mike,the jump seat in the cockpit is a small fold down seat,ok for occasional use but not suitable for every flight. The 2 pilot seems ok,they maybe should work less hours,2 sectors (flights) per day is enough.
Maybe the doctor of a pilot should by law inform the airline if there is any reason why a pilot should not be flying due to medical reasons...I don't think any pilot would object to that. Such an inform would be very rare it cannot be much of a cost penalty to either the doctor or the airline but so important in that rare situation.
Just common sense really.
KudosDave

All things are possible.
Three pilots, toilet compartment on flight deck.
In the Army, you could only see the Army MO. I believe that at one time it was the same for the Police and Fire Brigade

 

[flecc]

Mike,the jump seat in the cockpit is a small fold down seat,ok for occasional use but not suitable for every flight. The 2 pilot seems ok,they maybe

There are sometimes other reasons for the captain to leave the cockpit though. Occasionally a passenger causing trouble results in the cabin crew having to call for assistance from the flight deck, not common but it it does happen occasionally.

Maybe one member of the cabin crew, probably male, should also be a trained security person. They could deal with any passenger problems that crop up, also stand in on the flight deck when a pilot needs to use the toilet. That would make both areas much more secure at very little extra cost.
.

 

[tillson]

Maybe the doctor of a pilot should by law inform the airline if there is any reason why a pilot should not be flying due to medical reasons...I don't think any pilot would object to that.

If this was the case, I think there would be a danger that the pilot would not seek any medical help at all because of a fear of losing their job. With the present system, a pilot can at least seek medical help from their GP in confidence and speak confidentially to their GP about any medical issues. Mandatory reporting to the aviation authorities by a GP could be counter productive.

The CAA have some blame regarding pilots hiding illness and failing to report issues which may affect their abilities. The CAA operate a culture quickly grounding pilots (nothing wrong with that is safety is affected) and then offering very little support on the pathway back to flying. In fact they can be very stubborn and uncompromising. This has the effect of making pilots hide medical issues from them. If there was a more supportive culture, pilots may be more open to engaging with the aviation authorities and that could possibly have prevented events which have happened in recent days.

 

[trex]

would you still get on that plane if you knew the pilot has a health issue? flying may be a lifelong ambition for some but people with illness can't be put in charge of the life of others.

 

[tillson]

would you still get on that plane if you knew the pilot has a health issue? flying may be a lifelong ambition for some but people with illness can't be put in charge of the life of others.

The likelihood is that at some time or other, if we fly frequently enough, we have all got on a plane and the pilot has been hiding a medical issue. The reason they are hiding illness is because of a fear that they will not be able to return to flying, even after they are deemed fit / cured by a medical specialist in the particular field of illness they have been suffering. The pathway back to flying, when fully fit, is very difficult and can be met by stubbornness and complete blanking by the CAA. This is what puts people off reporting illness and if the GP was mandated to report it, the situation would be worse. If you had spent in excess of £80000 obtaining a licence, plus the studying and stress of actually getting a job with an airline, would you risk all that and your lively hood by going to your GP if you were feeling depressed from time to time?

I would rather have a situation where pilots are more at ease seeking medical help in the knowledge that where possible they will be helped back into flying when fit. At least then, you would have more confidence that when you board a plane, the pilot is actually fit to fly it.

 

[JohnCade]

It doesn’t only happen with aeroplanes. The Moorgate tube crash which killed almost fifty people a couple of decades ago is believed to have been suicide. They brought in more robust systems to prevent a driver going into the buffers at full speed after that. But how many would be suicidal coach drivers are traveling the motorways at seventy miles an hour?

Lots of things in life are dangerous but If we spend our lives worrying about them we might as well not be living at all; and a suicidal pilot must be pretty low on the list of things that can cause an air crash.

 

[flecc]

And with suicide bombers in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places, even bus passengers and pedestrians aren't safe.

Not to mention runaway trucks in Britain which kill people.

Just living is a very risky thing. Staying indoors won't necessarily help, the takeaway you ordered for delivery could give you food poisoning.
.

 

[Kuorider]

Luftfahrt-Bundesamt are the German Authority, the CAA are for UK aviation and have no part in this matter.

 

[tillson]

Luftfahrt-Bundesamt are the German Authority, the CAA are for UK aviation and have no part in this matter.

I wasn't aware that anyone had suggested otherwise.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Tillson....I agree with your comments but it does not seem right that ,reporting today, suggests that this luthansa first officer was being treated for suicide even before he started his pilot training.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Reflecting on this situation, I actually feel sorry for Lufthansa. Their policy of having German national recruiting, though discriminatory is sensible, given that German workers are famed for their diligence and serious attitude to duty.

The airline also has an excellent safety record and has the maximum ranking seven star safety rating. Unfortunately though there is a trap in this situation, since management tends to react to needs. With no apparent problem and everything going so well over a sustained period, there is a natural tendency to leave well alone on the principle "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

In such an environment it's all too easy to miss an odd rogue who is skilfully making every effort to conceal his situation, as Andreas Lubnitz was doing. After all, it seems even his captain who sat alongside him day after day for hours on end hadn't perceived anything untoward.
.

Flecc....what has recently come out in the media has indicated that Lufthansa and German Wings had many opportunities to question whether this German First Officer should ever have been flying,his problem was more than depression,it appears that Lufthansa had knowledge that he had suicidal tendencies....it makes one wonder what aspect of a pilots medical history is serious enough to cause them to stop a pilot flying?
I have a lot of knowledge of the checks that the UK flying schools and subsequently Easyjet and Ryanair make on their pilots,it is incredibly thorough and anything that would suggest that a pilot was unsuitable to be a pilot that person is rejected, they have plenty of choice so only the best get employed.Most of these pilots are agency,they can be dismissed immediately without reason.
I do think Lufthansa had an arrogant attitude,they seemed to think that keeping a close eye on their pilots was not necessary because nothing had ever happened to cause concern,they are suffering and the families of their passengers are suffering from their complacent attitude.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Flecc....what has recently come out in the media has indicated that Lufthansa and German Wings had many opportunities to question whether this German First Officer should ever have been flying,
KudosDave

I agree Dave, the revelations since my post that you quoted have made it abundantly clear that Lufthansa were very much at fault

That could indeed be due to arrogance. In addition I think that an excessive application of kindness was present when Lubitz was allowed to return to training after a self-admitted very long bout of severe depression.

I've noticed before that since WW2, Germans in authority are often overly keen to show tolerance and kindness, perhaps in subconcious compensation for their horrific record in that war. We have another example currently where Germany has been so reluctant to join with the rest of Europe in sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine situation. They so often now seem to prefer soft approaches to problems.
.