The Law

[flecc]

But you can only make an example of them when you catch them which right now seems to be only when they kill somebody.

But that is what's meant by the isolated example. They make others to whom it has relevance sit up and take notice.

Lots of cases could have the opposite effect, people might just yawn at the commonplace .

100% detection is impossible so we normally deal with the important. If cyclists only kill once year, it hardly ranks as important to the police against all the other road deaths. But when something becomes serious they then act. For example we had a spate of cyclists killed in collisions with trucks about 3 or 4 years ago, so the police acted then. For a couple of months the Met Police blitzed the streets mob handed, stopping thousand of cyclists and drivers at the slightest hint of an infringement. A few were ticketed, most just warned in a friendly fashion and it was even handed, as many cyclists as drivers. It had the desired effect.

If illegal e-bikes start to become a bigger problem, a similar action can be taken. But at present there are far higher priorities and bigger problems for the authorities to deal with, the national spate of youth knife crime for example.

So seizing the odd opportunity to make an example is good enough meanwhile.
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[Michael Price]

On the point of removing the dongle and then putting it back after the test - just saying that Bosch claim to be able to detect when an ebike with one of their motors has been 'dongled' (is that a word??)
if you use a dongle too much then it will go into a limp mode and won't work until you get it unlocked by an authorised dealer
Of course - I'm really not sure how they detect that you have put a dongle in - and obviously they won't say - but I am sure someone is working on how to get round it
I wonder how long their committemnt to this will last if sales drop and people start buying more dongleable versions from other makes

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I wonder how long their committemnt to this will last if sales drop and people start buying more dongleable versions from other makes

I imagine that Bosch is worried that if the pedelec concessions are widely abused the authorities will simply withdraw them in which case the sales of ebikes would plummet. I believe that Bosch are acting to protect the overall market and not necessarily their market share.

 

[Woosh]

Of course - I'm really not sure how they detect that you have put a dongle in - and obviously they won't say - but I am sure someone is working on how to get round it

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.
Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.
Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

And since the dongles typically halve the detected rpm of the cycle wheels the measured distance travelled is halved so the measured battery consumption per mile will be further reduced.

 

[BazP]

What would work?

No idea.

 

[BazP]

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.
Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

Surely the battery consumption varies greatly depending on which mode the bike is in. I may ride continuously in Turbo and you in Eco.
There may be some alogarithm that could use the percentage mileage in each mode that the Bosch software already records but I wouldn’t call it simple.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Surely the battery consumption varies greatly depending on which mode the bike is in. I may ride continuously in Turbo and you in Eco.

Surely the controller knows what mode it's in at any time? It will also have a good idea of the gradient and rider's input from the torque and cadence sensors so at any time it should have a reasonable idea of what the battery consumption per mile should be.
And the algorithms don't need to be particularly sophisticated either.

 

[Nealh]

Pedelec market will virtually be killed off if they brought in tougher regulation for them, esp if some sort of licensing involved, same with helmets Boardmans ideas are flawed. I think is was on cycle uk forum where I saw a thread regarding more scientific research carried out and it appeared that drivers who saw someone wearing helmet, close passed more often as it is perceived the rider is safer because they are wearing one. The fact that it is still dangerous is irrelevant to most.
Helmets don't make you any safer, esp those who attach lights or cameras to there bonce, Shumacher proved that and is why he is still now needing 24hr care many years following his accident.
The little girl who recently died whilst wearing her cycle helmet, she wasn't cycling at the time but was climbing a tree. She died because the strap got caught up and she was strangled as the strap couldn't be released, wearing a helmet as she was told to didn't save her life.

 

[Michael Price]

Surely the controller knows what mode it's in at any time? It will also have a good idea of the gradient and rider's input from the torque and cadence sensors so at any time it should have a reasonable idea of what the battery consumption per mile should be.
And the algorithms don't need to be particularly sophisticated either.

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

 

[Deus]

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

This bike can sense the gradient https://revonte.com/

 

[Deleted member 25121]

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

If the controller knows the cadence and knows the cycle wheel rpm it can calculate the gear ratio.

It could estimate the gradient from its knowledge of the torque being applied to the pedals, cycle speed and the gear ratio. A simple example of this:
Case A. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and low torque on pedals
Case B. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and high torque on pedals
then case B indicates a steeper road than A

 

[flecc]

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

There is another way on some systems to get a higher assist speed that doesn't involve altering the rear gearing, and it might apply to yours.

See this link on my Panasonic support website.
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[BazP]

If the controller knows the cadence and knows the cycle wheel rpm it can calculate the gear ratio.

It could estimate the gradient from its knowledge of the torque being applied to the pedals, cycle speed and the gear ratio. A simple example of this:
Case A. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and low torque on pedals
Case B. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and high torque on pedals
then case B indicates a steeper road than A

My bike doesn’t have a cadence sensor. With regard to “torque on pedals” if I sprint on the flat eg setting off from lights, = lots of torque, then slow down = no torque, how does the controller equate that with gradient.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

My bike doesn’t have a cadence sensor. With regard to “torque on pedals” if I sprint on the flat eg setting off from lights, = lots of torque, then slow down = no torque, how does the controller equate that with gradient.

Sorry, we were talking about Bosch equipped ebikes.

 

[corvay]

Shumacher proved that and is why he is still now needing 24hr care many years following his accident.
The little girl who recently died whilst wearing her cycle helmet, she wasn't cycling at the time but was climbing a tree. She died because the strap got caught up and she was strangled as the strap couldn't be released, wearing a helmet as she was told to didn't save her life.

...???

Schumacher hit a rock with his head, helmets are designed to reduce impact not stop it.

I get your argument but the two examples above are really not appropriate for the context. There is no good reason not to wear a cycle helmet on the roads, it saves a lot of lives.

 

[flecc]

There is no good reason not to wear a cycle helmet on the roads, it saves a lot of lives.

For a whole host of reasons that is not a rational argument. Indeed it can be shown to be irrational.
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[Nealh]

Schumacher had a mounted camera on his helmet, had he not done so then the camera mount wouldn't have penetrated in to his brain.

Moton's in the most part I believe see extra safety like helmets as an excuse that the rider is better protected, in my view a total myth.
They may use it as an excuse as not to give much space when passing or even moderating there speed, I reckon if you wore a long blond wig you would get better consideration from Moton's then wearing a helmet.

 

[BazP]

Sorry, we were talking about Bosch equipped ebikes.

Yes, mine is a Bosch equipped bike.

 

[Nealh]

For a whole host of reasons that is not a rational argument. Indeed it can be shown to be irrational.
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I agree Flecc if a vehicle hits you it will not stop injury except maybe a little head bump, the rest of your body it doesn't protect. At speed you will be killed and is the likely hood and in London likely pulverised by a lorry.
A helmet in my view will help in protecting against objects like branches etc hiting you or if riding offroad/downhill on roads I see little benifit.
I never where a helmet for a lot of my riding and only do when I'm out on an adventure ride. Though to be honest to a lot of Moton's it makes no difference what you wear, except possibly a target to intimidate.

The best overall option is ride with a rigid I metre rod on the O/S with a very sharp metal end, if anything is to deter a dangerous pass or threat to a cyclist then it is something that may cause damage to their precious lump of metal.