James, I posted a correction above, the Dual Drive is not a Shimano product. It is made by Shimano's biggest rival, US company SRAM.
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The Bosch drive system
- Thread starter vhfman
- Start date
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We live and learn...
Rgds,
James
AHH! and now you see my lack of cycle knowledge Flecc! I'm afraid I don't know much about bikes and so humbly bow my head to those that do. I know something of e-bikes though (over 5 years at it with Sparta and Koga after a shaky start working with rubbish from you know where), and 20 years designing and engineering race cars and aircraft helps a lot in evaluating whether something is likely to perform well over a long life (more on this later).
Rgds,
James
The important thing is that you use the DualDrive James, it's a great system, and I've been a bit surprised that Shimano don't compete with an equivalent.
I suspect though that their very small diameter 3 gear hub isn't strong enough for this application.
You must find the Bosch torque a revelation after the Sparta motor!
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I suspect though that their very small diameter 3 gear hub isn't strong enough for this application.
You must find the Bosch torque a revelation after the Sparta motor!
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Haibike Pedal Crank Issue - Solved.
The crank problem has been resolved. We received a Minor Modification Notice from Haibike this morning. All new bikes have been fitted with a new left hand new pedal crank and we are visiting all our Haibike customers to fit the re-worked replacement. The problem was that the clever tapered spline in the crank was not seating properly on the shaft's spline due to it bottoming out on the shaft spline root before the splines were fully engaged.
If anyone out there (in the UK) has a Haibike not purchased from justebikes.co.uk please get in touch - we will happily supply and fit the new crank FOC.
Rgds,
James
Hi Eddeio,Just back from Brum and have read through the 15 page thread on German pedelec's re these bikes (not easy using auto translate)
All I can say is that anyone thinking of buying one should read this first. There seems to be a problem with the left hand crank flying of. one did it on a shop test dride, then it happened to another user only after 100Km, and around page 11 yet another! there is a video with this one...
So as for being an early adopter I would wait a bit, unless you feel happy to handle anything thats comes up, but at this price range I would be expecting a certain level of reliability? Is that not reasonable? lol
The crank problem has been resolved. We received a Minor Modification Notice from Haibike this morning. All new bikes have been fitted with a new left hand new pedal crank and we are visiting all our Haibike customers to fit the re-worked replacement. The problem was that the clever tapered spline in the crank was not seating properly on the shaft's spline due to it bottoming out on the shaft spline root before the splines were fully engaged.
If anyone out there (in the UK) has a Haibike not purchased from justebikes.co.uk please get in touch - we will happily supply and fit the new crank FOC.
Rgds,
James
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Bosch Torque VS Sparta/Koga ION Torque
I'm a big fan of the Sparta/Koga ION motors. I've seen them grow from 22nm to 33nm and now this year to 40nm. Here's the thing: If I was looking for a road + bit of gentle off-road ebike I would would choose the Dutch ION drive every time. Its silent, sealed (I've submerged the motor on my 2007 Sparta countless times and it hasn't bothered it a bit), and super smooth, and has no moving parts so no wearing parts. We have a long term customer in Leicester who has just upgraded to a 40nm Koga E-Special from a 33nm model. He weighs at least 2 of me and says he's astonished at how well it carries him up the steep hills on his 14 mile daily commute.
Crank drive systems are are in my opinion not perfect for road use - they're good but not as good as the ION drive system. In the Haibike XDuro it doesn't matter that you can hear the motor - it actually adds to the thrill I'm slightly embarrassed to report - because you're so focused on ripping up the dirt track hill at an alarming rate. On the road you can't hear the Bosch motor over the tire noise, but you are aware of its existence. With the ION system you don't know its there, you just feel its effect.
En fin, I don't think the two systems can be compared easily: Its like trying to compare a supercharged Land-Rover with a turbocharged Bentley.... they're both great but you need to try them both to figure out which is best for you and your environment.
Rgds,
James
Hi Flecc,
I'm a big fan of the Sparta/Koga ION motors. I've seen them grow from 22nm to 33nm and now this year to 40nm. Here's the thing: If I was looking for a road + bit of gentle off-road ebike I would would choose the Dutch ION drive every time. Its silent, sealed (I've submerged the motor on my 2007 Sparta countless times and it hasn't bothered it a bit), and super smooth, and has no moving parts so no wearing parts. We have a long term customer in Leicester who has just upgraded to a 40nm Koga E-Special from a 33nm model. He weighs at least 2 of me and says he's astonished at how well it carries him up the steep hills on his 14 mile daily commute.
Crank drive systems are are in my opinion not perfect for road use - they're good but not as good as the ION drive system. In the Haibike XDuro it doesn't matter that you can hear the motor - it actually adds to the thrill I'm slightly embarrassed to report - because you're so focused on ripping up the dirt track hill at an alarming rate. On the road you can't hear the Bosch motor over the tire noise, but you are aware of its existence. With the ION system you don't know its there, you just feel its effect.
En fin, I don't think the two systems can be compared easily: Its like trying to compare a supercharged Land-Rover with a turbocharged Bentley.... they're both great but you need to try them both to figure out which is best for you and your environment.
Rgds,
James
I agree they can't realistically be compared on all round factors. As you say, the Sparta motor is superb in use and quality if moderate assistance is all that's needed, much due to the direct drive that also makes the BionX endearing.
I can't recommend a Sparta in most of the UK though, due to the suitably equipped dealer resetting that's needed following a rear wheel removal. That has been a source of problems already for the very few owners here. We don't have the necessary extensive approved dealer coverage that the Netherlands has.
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I can't recommend a Sparta in most of the UK though, due to the suitably equipped dealer resetting that's needed following a rear wheel removal. That has been a source of problems already for the very few owners here. We don't have the necessary extensive approved dealer coverage that the Netherlands has.
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I see that another issue has been raised....inverting the motor means the drainage holes designed to drain away underneath are now on top. This means that some are covering holes with sticky tape and some contemplating storing the bikes upside down. James what is your thoughts on this, and welcome to the forum by the way
On a positive note these bikes are being very well received over in Germany and going down well with serious e bikers...the opinion seems to be that they are very powerful indeed
On a positive note these bikes are being very well received over in Germany and going down well with serious e bikers...the opinion seems to be that they are very powerful indeed
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HAiBiKE/BOSCH motor cover
The cover is designed to protect the motor from flying stones or debris when configured in the conventional position (see Hercules Roberta and Robert on justebikes.co.uk). It has no sealing function as all electrical and mechanical components within are independently hermetically sealed .
FYI, the holes in the cover are designed to accommodate power cables for other configurations (not drainage holes). For Haibike/Bosch models water getting in through the holes in the top will simply fall out of the holes in the bottom (unless as my daughter suggests you put some cotton wool in the holes and plant some cress or mustard seeds).
Rgds,
James
Thanks for the welcome Eddieo, and yes the Haibikes have been a big success here too - we have only 68 units left. I've asked for more but production is sold out until next spring.I see that another issue has been raised....inverting the motor means the drainage holes designed to drain away underneath are now on top. This means that some are covering holes with sticky tape and some contemplating storing the bikes upside down. James what is your thoughts on this, and welcome to the forum by the way
On a positive note these bikes are being very well received over in Germany and going down well with serious e bikers...the opinion seems to be that they are very powerful indeed
The cover is designed to protect the motor from flying stones or debris when configured in the conventional position (see Hercules Roberta and Robert on justebikes.co.uk). It has no sealing function as all electrical and mechanical components within are independently hermetically sealed .
FYI, the holes in the cover are designed to accommodate power cables for other configurations (not drainage holes). For Haibike/Bosch models water getting in through the holes in the top will simply fall out of the holes in the bottom (unless as my daughter suggests you put some cotton wool in the holes and plant some cress or mustard seeds).
Rgds,
James
Dealer Support for Sparta, Koga, Hercules & Haibike.
Hi Flecc,
You are quite right to mention the importance of dealer support but wheel removal has never been a problem for our many Sparta and Koga customers throughout the UK.
For the last 5 years we have focused almost entirely on leasing fleets of e-bikes to public and private corporations where the leasing package includes scheduled preventative on-site maintenance - essential and much better than reacting to problems as they occur.
Last year, following a marked increase in retail sales at our Suffolk showroom, we were looking for ways to offer our products to individuals nationwide. We considered opening traditional shops and we considered appointing dealers, but in the end chose the ecommerce route: Justebikes.co.uk was launched 12 days ago.
To make e-bike ownership easy and trouble free we offer customers home service visits, details are here: Service Packages These are normally scheduled once every six months but should an unexpected problem occur, customers can call us to bring a scheduled service forward.
You will also see that we don’t believe our customers’ e-bike experience should begin with delivery of a non-descript brown box. We deliver assembled, commissioned and tested e-bikes to customers’ door using our vehicles and our staff (free of charge). This allows us to spend time with them making sure everything is set up perfectly and to their liking. If following a test ride down their street or around their block, they (or we) are not completely happy with their choice, we either replace the e-bike with something more suitable, or they get a full refund (the choice is theirs).
Our aim here is to make purchasing and using an e-bike risk-free, and to remove the hassle of having to transport the bike backwards and forwards to the store. If you can think of anything to improve our offer I’d be grateful for your suggestions.
Lastly, there is no need to connect a Sparta or Koga to a computer terminal after removing the rear wheel following a roadside puncture repair – just make sure the left and right hand wheel alignment spacers are put back where you found them, tighten the wheel nuts as you would on a conventional bike, then press and hold the light switch for 10 seconds to re-calibrate the motor. Most folks with a modicum of mechanical sense and experience of changing a conventional wheel without a torque wrench would tighten wheel nuts to about 50nm. By chance this happens to be the figure prescribed by Sparta/Koga too!
Sparta and Koga correctly advise that only qualified technicians should replace wheels. I agree with them of course but this is impractical when you’re 20 miles from home on a wet winter night. Needless to say, the next time we service the bike, either at the customer’s home or in our Suffolk workshop, wheel nut torque is checked and the motor recalibrated.
Rgds,
James
Hi Flecc,
You are quite right to mention the importance of dealer support but wheel removal has never been a problem for our many Sparta and Koga customers throughout the UK.
For the last 5 years we have focused almost entirely on leasing fleets of e-bikes to public and private corporations where the leasing package includes scheduled preventative on-site maintenance - essential and much better than reacting to problems as they occur.
Last year, following a marked increase in retail sales at our Suffolk showroom, we were looking for ways to offer our products to individuals nationwide. We considered opening traditional shops and we considered appointing dealers, but in the end chose the ecommerce route: Justebikes.co.uk was launched 12 days ago.
To make e-bike ownership easy and trouble free we offer customers home service visits, details are here: Service Packages These are normally scheduled once every six months but should an unexpected problem occur, customers can call us to bring a scheduled service forward.
You will also see that we don’t believe our customers’ e-bike experience should begin with delivery of a non-descript brown box. We deliver assembled, commissioned and tested e-bikes to customers’ door using our vehicles and our staff (free of charge). This allows us to spend time with them making sure everything is set up perfectly and to their liking. If following a test ride down their street or around their block, they (or we) are not completely happy with their choice, we either replace the e-bike with something more suitable, or they get a full refund (the choice is theirs).
Our aim here is to make purchasing and using an e-bike risk-free, and to remove the hassle of having to transport the bike backwards and forwards to the store. If you can think of anything to improve our offer I’d be grateful for your suggestions.
Lastly, there is no need to connect a Sparta or Koga to a computer terminal after removing the rear wheel following a roadside puncture repair – just make sure the left and right hand wheel alignment spacers are put back where you found them, tighten the wheel nuts as you would on a conventional bike, then press and hold the light switch for 10 seconds to re-calibrate the motor. Most folks with a modicum of mechanical sense and experience of changing a conventional wheel without a torque wrench would tighten wheel nuts to about 50nm. By chance this happens to be the figure prescribed by Sparta/Koga too!
Sparta and Koga correctly advise that only qualified technicians should replace wheels. I agree with them of course but this is impractical when you’re 20 miles from home on a wet winter night. Needless to say, the next time we service the bike, either at the customer’s home or in our Suffolk workshop, wheel nut torque is checked and the motor recalibrated.
Rgds,
James
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Sorry James, but I still see this as a problem on any bicycle. I do know of Sparta users who have had this difficulty, albeit not on bikes supplied by your company.
Having had a problem arise over a hundred miles from support and a resetting facility as has happened, that owner wasn't very happy.
The Sparta and Koga bikes are superb, beautifully built and styled, and possibly the best there is in this respect. But any prospective customer should be made fully aware of this service requirement before purchase.
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Having had a problem arise over a hundred miles from support and a resetting facility as has happened, that owner wasn't very happy.
The Sparta and Koga bikes are superb, beautifully built and styled, and possibly the best there is in this respect. But any prospective customer should be made fully aware of this service requirement before purchase.
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Hi Flecc,
We do make prospective customers aware of the servicing requirements. I do Know that some people have had problems with after sales service Flecc. In fact for some years now Sparta have been advising people who are unhappy with level of service provided by the original supplier to contact us (we make no charge for remedial work even though we didn't supply the bike).
By the way, our ecommerce site was built with Accell Group's blessing. This is a first for them; they don't allow online sales elsewhere (eg Holland, Germany, etc), and only agreed to us doing it after we had proved our commitment to after-sales service over the past 5 years, and undertook to hand deliver and service their e-bikes at customers premises.
Flecc as you know I'm new to this forum and am unsure of how to use it correctly - please shout if I'm posting things in the wrong place. I notice the likes of TETS have a company profile under a listing of e-bike suppliers - could you tell me where I can create a profile for justebikes?
Rgds,
James
That's good to know on the service front James.
Your postings are fine, this Electric Bicycles forum being the best place for the widest audience. To get an entry in the e-bike suppliers section you'll need to contact one of the administrators, Russell Scott or RichardB, to make the entry, by sending a PM from the links I've given.
Incidentally, I've been following Accell's desire to wrap up the whole of the Netherlands e-bike manufacturing by acquiring Gazelle, and their subsequent attempt to block anyone getting Gazelle if they can't have it. The move to acquire a part of Derby Cycles is a new twist!
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Thanks Flecc I'll contact a moderator (what is a PM?). Yes the Accell moves are fascinating. There are so many motivation angles to consider... I'm quite certain one is that production capacity at each of their daughter companies is struggling to meet extraordinary demand (growth rates are at a level unseen in other industries), so the parent co, recognizing the explosion in the e-bike sector and the potential for so much more growth, has taken a stake in a (failing?) competitor. What I'm driving at is that Accell have solid market info. If ACME Inc had the same info they would take a stake in Gazelle too. Time to buy Accell shares?
By the way a customer from Buxton called in to collect his bike today, he convinced me to take some Haibikes to Presteigne. Will you be there?
PM = Private Message.
Yes, Gazelle is certainly not doing as well as it should be in today's booming market, and Accell is the one to watch.
On another thread I saw that Onbike who are running the Presteigne event are restricting it to the brands they are agents for, so best to check with them first on the Haibike presence to save a wasted trip.
I've shown the photo for you that you wanted posted in the Wedding thread, on this link.
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Yes, Gazelle is certainly not doing as well as it should be in today's booming market, and Accell is the one to watch.
On another thread I saw that Onbike who are running the Presteigne event are restricting it to the brands they are agents for, so best to check with them first on the Haibike presence to save a wasted trip.
I've shown the photo for you that you wanted posted in the Wedding thread, on this link.
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Just looking at the service schedule...If I went for the silver @ £199 as a low mileage user and unlikely to go on the rough stuff a yearly service would probably suffice. So could I just have a once a year service meaning the package will last 2 years? is that right?
alternatively I have a very good pro bike shop I mile from me.......But my concern would be, what does the Bosch specific maintenance involve and how often?
also if there is a warranty issue what happpens then?
alternatively I have a very good pro bike shop I mile from me.......But my concern would be, what does the Bosch specific maintenance involve and how often?
also if there is a warranty issue what happpens then?
Have seen a few new Bosch powered bikes with the NuVinci hub....What is this like? Their are at least two bikes with NuVinci and one is the very nice looking Stephens Carpo with a price around 2200 euro I think...
http://www.stevensbikes.de/2011/index.php?bik_id=228&lang=en_US&cou=FR
2 more - not NuVinci
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.e-rad.de/le-mans.html&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhj_JzIuKM3j5ItwxdAWgMNaOYsBlA
http://www.e-bike-experte.de/ktm-macina-bold.html
I think this system is going to be very big.....reports coming in that it is stronger in the mountains then the Panasonic's S series with 300 watt motor.
http://www.stevensbikes.de/2011/index.php?bik_id=228&lang=en_US&cou=FR
2 more - not NuVinci
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.e-rad.de/le-mans.html&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhj_JzIuKM3j5ItwxdAWgMNaOYsBlA
http://www.e-bike-experte.de/ktm-macina-bold.html
I think this system is going to be very big.....reports coming in that it is stronger in the mountains then the Panasonic's S series with 300 watt motor.
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The NuVinci hub works well but is not very efficient, despite their claims. That places it at the bottom of the efficiency stack, derailleur most efficient, then normal hub gears, then the NuVinci.
That may not be too important on an e-bike though, given the extra power, so the continuous transmission advantage of a CVT may still be preferred.
That comparison with the Panasonic S system is not a fair one. Power can be biased for speed as it is on the S models, at the cost of some climb ability. The comparison should be with the standard sport Panasonic system as in the Kalkhoff Pro Connect Disc for example.
That may not be too important on an e-bike though, given the extra power, so the continuous transmission advantage of a CVT may still be preferred.
That comparison with the Panasonic S system is not a fair one. Power can be biased for speed as it is on the S models, at the cost of some climb ability. The comparison should be with the standard sport Panasonic system as in the Kalkhoff Pro Connect Disc for example.
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