The Berlin truck atrocity

[oldtom]

Well done to the Milan police for acting so quickly on encountering the suspect in the Berlin truck massacre. It's reassuring that police officers in a different country from that in which the crime was committed were paying attention and remained vigilant, on the look-out for the perpetrator of that disgusting pre-Christmas crime, known to be on the run but could have been anywhere in Europe.

I hope the injured officer makes a speedy recovery.

Tom

 

[flecc]

Well done to the Milan police for acting so quickly on encountering the suspect in the Berlin truck massacre.

Indeed. Very little deters these religious fanatics, but speedy detection, and killing if necessary, on every occasion will at least put some off imitation.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't think they were specifically looking for him or even suspected it was him when they saw him, so it was mainly luck( good or bad?), but they should at least be congratulated for acting on suspicion rather than taking easier options. I hope the poor policeman that got shot makes a speedy recovery. Both of them will probably end up being recognised and rewarded as heros, so, hopefully a happy ending for them.

 

[tillson]

I don't think they were specifically looking for him or even suspected it was him when they saw him, so it was mainly luck( good or bad?), but they should at least be congratulated for acting on suspicion rather than taking easier options. I hope the poor policeman that got shot makes a speedy recovery. Both of them will probably end up being recognised and rewarded as heros, so, hopefully a happy ending for them.

Or alternatively, if this had happened in the UK, the coppers would be sent home in a paper suit, following the seizure of their clothing, told not to contact or speak with any of their colleagues, and to then spend the next 5 years sweating on a CPS decision whether to charge them with murder or not. The BBC might even make a prime time documentary concerning the murderous b@stard's gunning down of a refugee. Yuman rights lawyers, having got a whiff of the stench coming from potential compo money, would be forming an disorderly queue outside the courts.

 

[tommie]

Or alternatively, if this had happened in the UK, the coppers would be sent home in a paper suit, following the seizure of their clothing, told not to contact or speak with any of their colleagues, and to then spend the next 5 years sweating on a CPS decision whether to charge them with murder or not. The BBC might even make a prime time documentary concerning the murderous b@stards gunning down of a refugee. Yuman rights lawyers, having got a whiff of the stench coming from potential compo money, would be forming an disorderly queue outside the courts.

How very true....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38397205

 

[anotherkiwi]

There was a very interesting documentary on French TV tracing the history of these fanatical sects and their origins stemming from Saudi Arabia and wahhabism. The house of Saud basically used the wahhab sect for seating it's power as ruling family and has covered the crimes committed by the fanatics to stay in power ever since.

England and France as colonial powers in the region play their part by closing their eyes and ears followed by the Americans, who got involved because of their oil addiction.

Not surprisingly these sects have nothing to do Islam in much the same way as extremist sects in the USA have nothing to do with Christianity. One muslim scholar remarked that Saudi Arabia has completely destroyed practically all of the historic spots of the history of Islam in Mecca over the last years in "modernisation". He drew a parallel - imagine leveling the Vatican to make way for a shopping mall! And the muslim population of the world watched this happening and said nothing.

This is about to end badly because the last of the Kings who is a descendant in direct line from the founder of Saudi Arabia will die and there are many Princes from different branches of the family who can pretend to the throne... We can imagine the power struggle that is ahead.

 

[tillson]

I have just watched the opening to the BBC 6 O'clock news. "Questions are being asked as to how the suspect was able to travel to France and then Italy following the attack."

Is this even a question? It's like asking what makes my hand wet if I put it in a bowl of water. Are these people really so stupid that they don't know the answer?

Here is a plan. Carry out attack, go to safe place, put on burka, move around freely whilst authorities are too $h!t scarred to stop and search anyone wearing this garment, get on a train or a bus, exploit Schengen and free movement of people agreement to travel between countries. Simple.

This is how he was able to move between countries. It's just down to luck that this man was caught and stopped. Nothing more than luck.

 

[Danidl]

Indeed. Very little deters these religious fanatics, but speedy detection, and killing if necessary, on every occasion will at least put some off imitation.
.

I would be reluctant to term him as either a religious fanatic or a terrorist. Unfortunately there are some people who like to cause mayhem and kill others. It appears that he has had a history of this If ISIS is the fashionable cause then they will latch onto it. It provides a justification and a "cause. ", However spurious.

I would reserve the term religious fanatic to those who are prepared to risk their ( not others) life for an ideal and who is not prepared to accept that anyone could disagree with them.
I dislike the term terrorist, because it inhibits any meaningful discussion, Label anyone a terrorist and you need explain yourself no further.
Regrettably the only positive outcome from the shooting of this perpetrator is that he will no longer kill again. I regret that in my opinion it will not prevent others seeking their own sense of immortality by being famous for a short while.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I have just watched the opening to the BBC 6 O'clock news. "Questions are being asked as to how the suspect was able to travel to France and then Italy following the attack."

Just a guess, by car?

 

[Croxden]

It's just down to luck that this man was caught and stopped. Nothing more than luck.

Are not most crimes solved this way?

 

[tillson]

Are not most crimes solved this way?

No, the identity of the suspect is usually disclosed through a process of investigation. This was the case with the Berlin truck driver.

The suspect is usually located and detained using historical information such as intelligence. Something the UK is very good at. Some Yuman Rights legislation, Schengen and free movement of people is the terrorists friend and it helps them to go about their business. Germany's open door policy and its aversion to CCTV monitoring of public places will have been an asset to the Berlin killer.

It's very fortunate that the Italian policeman stumbled upon the attacker.

 

[Croxden]

The Yorkshire ripper & Lesley Whittle came to mind, lots of work but that didn't get them

Most criminals are picked up by random checks of motor cars or for minor infringements.

That's what I was told during the police advanced driving course, not part of the course but during a chat.

 

[mike killay]

I suspect that the remote 'Questions are being asked...' is in fact a journalists device to create news rather than someone actually asking such a question.
It is obvious that he just went to Italy, in a Shengen Zone, how would he not be able to do so?

 

[flecc]

Just a guess, by car?

By train, the police said train ticket(s) found in his pocket.
.

 

[Croxden]

By train, the police said train ticket(s) found in his pocket.
.

Not Southern Rail then?

 

[flecc]

Not Southern Rail then?

No, that's our anti-terrorist travel system, gives the police a chance to finish their tea break before going after them.
.

 

[tillson]

The Yorkshire ripper & Lesley Whittle came to mind, lots of work but that didn't get them

Most criminals are picked up by random checks of motor cars or for minor infringements.

That's what I was told during the police advanced driving course, not part of the course but during a chat.

Donal Neilson and Peter Sutcliffe where apprehended as a result of chance encounters after months of investigation had made little headway. Vehicle stops, and checks made on the occupants are also a rich sources of crime detections. Stop and search of people on the street is also a very useful tool in detecting crime. All of these methods could be classed as having an element of chance about them, so luck can't be ruled out.

However, I think many more crimes are detected as a result of investigation. Usually the starting point is some form of evidence left at the scene which gives away the identity of the perpetrator. The police have a very good intelligence database, some people would argue too good, on people. Some of whom have no criminal record, so that is controversial. This mountain of information coupled with clues to the identity of the suspect leads to many more detections than chance alone.

With shrinking numbers the police need to work more efficiently. CCTV, comprehensive intelligence databases, internet monitoring, mobile telephone tracking and stop search powers all help in this regard.

 

[flecc]

Donal Neilson and Peter Sutcliffe where apprehended as a result of chance encounters after months of investigation had made little headway. Vehicle stops, and checks made on the occupants are also a rich sources of crime detections. Stop and search of people on the street is also a very useful tool in detecting crime. All of these methods could be classed as having an element of chance about them, so luck can't be ruled out.

However, I think many more crimes are detected as a result of investigation. Usually the starting point is some form of evidence left at the scene which gives away the identity of the perpetrator. The police have a very good intelligence database, some people would argue too good, on people. Some of whom have no criminal record, so that is controversial. This mountain of information coupled with clues to the identity of the suspect leads to many more detections than chance alone.

With shrinking numbers the police need to work more efficiently. CCTV, comprehensive intelligence databases, internet monitoring, mobile telephone tracking and stop search powers all help in this regard.

But unfortunately a common detection rate across crimes is about 8%. A large study when both crime and police strengths were at their peak some while ago concluded that crime was almost as high as it could be and it would be little different if there were no police.

Basically today's police tackle "fashionable" crime, but that I mean those that fit the government's agenda. For some while now those have been terrorism, paedophilia and murder. Those are mainly solved by detection, but any other crimes solved are mainly by luck with detection playing little or no part. Such things as the crime being luckily captured on CCTV, a member of the public knowing the criminal, detention by store security or public, a car having a tracker fitted etc.
.

 

[Wicky]

Plenty of allied aircrew travelled through occupied Europe and made it back home despite impediments put in their way.

http://paperlessarchives.com/wwiiescapeandevasionreports.html

 

[tillson]

But unfortunately a common detection rate across crimes is about 8%. A large study when both crime and police strengths were at their peak some while ago concluded that crime was almost as high as it could be and it would be little different if there were no police.

Basically today's police tackle "fashionable" crime, but that I mean those that fit the government's agenda. For some while now those have been terrorism, paedophilia and murder. Those are mainly solved by detection, but any other crimes solved are mainly by luck with detection playing little or no part. Such things as the crime being luckily captured on CCTV, a member of the public knowing the criminal, detention by store security or public, a car having a tracker fitted etc.
.

That's interesting regarding likely crime rates if there were no police. Having given thought to the idea, it doesn't seem as crazy as it initially appears. I think if the police were to suddenly stop doing what they do in terms of detecting crime, but the public were not made aware, then I agree that crime rates may remain unchanged.

There has to be a notion in people's minds that some authority which will hold them to account if they do something to harm others. To officially announce that the police system was being disbanded would result in anarchy, I think. I don't have sufficient faith in human nature to believe otherwise.

Primary crime detection rates are pitifully low. That is where a crime is detected entirely as a result of the investigation process. That 8% figure will include crimes confessed to as a result of inducements. My guess would be that primary detection is at least half that 8% figure. Of course, the overall crime figures contain a large percentage of crap which should never have been recorded in the first place. Remove that from the equation and the detection figures begin to look better.