Tandam CoPilot 26-3

[NikkJ]

Hi guys,

I'm new to this site and seeking advice.

A friend has a CoPilot Tandem 26-inch wheel bike with a Bafang rear wheel motor 65 Nm/. His disabled son is growing fast and having trouble cycling the bike, so the father is having to put in more effort due to the combined weight.
I'm looking to upgrade the drive system to provide them with the extra assistance they need. I've reached out to Huba Bikes, but they have redirected me to London Recumbents. I've seen Varstrom conversion kits and I'm exploring options and seeking advice.

Has anyone ever upgraded this type of Electric Tandem, obviously staying within the law?.........

Thanking you guys in advance; any help will be gratefully received.
Regards
Nic

 

[saneagle]

Yes, you can get what you want by adjusting the controller.

Let's just set the groundwork:
There's a maximum current that your battery can give safely. We have no idea what it is and how much it's giving. Typically, your controller would be around 15A, and most batteries can give 20A. If you need more current than what the battery can give, you'd have to change the battery. You can get any current you want by changing the controller. The motor can safely go up to around 22 amps at 36v.

65nm doesn't mean anything and it's wrong. Motors are transducers. They give power out according to what power you feed into them. Torque is directly proportional to the current. So if you want more torque, you increase the current.

There are two ways to increase the current for your bike. Firstly, and cost free, you can solder 25% of the length of the shunt in the controller if you can get access to it. It takes 5 minutes to get the controller out and 1 minute to solder it. Secondly, you can replace the controller with a different one. That will give you the chance to get one with probably a much better control system than you have. That costs £40 for a crappy one or £80 for a nice one. If your battery is quite old, it would be better to change everything except the motor unless you want a lot more power. To replace everything, it would cost around £650.

If you want more specific advice, you need to find the controller, show us what it is and tell us the maximum current that's always written on the label. It's probably sitting in the compartment at the front of the battery.

 

[matthewslack]

I met a couple on a recumbent tandem trike on one of my trips last year. Much lower seating than the image you gave, and rather long.

But they were having a great old time, without much effort, with a Bafang mid drive giving the grunt. She was the eyes, because he had little sight, neither had much physical input to give, but seemed to be going very well.

 

[guerney]

What does the Tandam CoPilot 26-3 weigh? Unless I've missed it, the website doesn't say and neither do the PDF downloads.

I met a couple on a recumbent tandem trike on one of my trips last year. Much lower seating than the image you gave, and rather long.

But they were having a great old time, without much effort, with a Bafang mid drive giving the grunt. She was the eyes, because he had little sight, neither had much physical input to give, but seemed to be going very well.

Did you see which Bafang mid-drive it was? Cadence sensing makes things easy...

 

[matthewslack]

What does the Tandam CoPilot 26-3 weigh? Unless I've missed it, the website doesn't say and neither do the PDF downloads.



Did you see which Bafang mid-drive it was? Cadence sensing makes things easy...

It was a BBS, not obvious which, but they looked law abiding!

 

[guerney]

It was a BBS, not obvious which, but they looked law abiding!

Were they fat? Round people look more trustworthy, because we instinctively suspect they know where all the sweets are, and hope they'll give us some. Examples are everywhere: Father Christmas, fat. Churchill, fat. Jolly Green Giant, fat and jolly. It's why fat people are the best at sales. According to dudes on Endless Sphere, a Bafang HD runs stable at 1560W with the new open source firmware - I reckon that'd certainly haul 300kg of metal and happily wobbling flesh uphill.

 

[saneagle]

Were they fat? Round people look more trustworthy, because we instinctively suspect they know where all the sweets are, and hope they'll give us some. Examples are everywhere: Father Christmas, fat. Churchill, fat. Jolly Green Giant, fat and jolly. It's why fat people are the best at sales. According to dudes on Endless Sphere, a Bafang HD runs stable at 1560W with the new open source firmware - I reckon that'd certainly haul a total weight of 300kg uphill.

Any motor can haul 300kg up a hill. It's just a question of how steep the hill is and how fast you go. The 100w motor might manage 1% at 8 mph, Bafang HD 12% and Heinzman 25%. It's simple physics: 100w vs 1560w vs 3000w. If they all go at the same speed, the max hill steepness they can go up is directly proportional to output power.

 

[guerney]

Any motor can haul 300kg up a hill. It's just a question of how steep the hill is and how fast you go. The 100w motor might manage 1% at 8 mph, Bafang HD 12% and Heinzman 25%. It's simple physics: 100w vs 1560w vs 3000w. If they all go at the same speed, the max hill steepness they can go up is directly proportional to output power.

More beans from the Heinzmann, but can they be easily bought by the general public? How much do they cost anyway? They look expensive and tricky to assemble. Dont they use oil cooling? Or is that the Amazon lorry-like "ebikes".

 

[saneagle]

The Heinzman can have more beans, but can they be easily bought by the general public? How much do they cost anyway? They look expensive and tricky to assemble. Dont they use oil cooling?

The high power one is specifically for quadricycles. It has two "125w" hub motors that fit to a standard axle. They also make a "250w" conventional single hub-motor with a bit less actual power, which they sell as a standard conversion kit.

When I was at one of the Bristol shows, a guy had a big cargo trike with a Heinzman rear motor. He went up the hill in Park St. like he was driving a car.

 

[guerney]

The high power one is specifically for quadricycles. It has two "125w" hub motors that fit to a standard axle. They also make a "250w" conventional single hub-motor with a bit less actual power, which they sell as a standard conversion kit.

When I was at one of the Bristol shows, a guy had a big cargo trike with a Heinzman rear motor. He went up the hill in Park St. like he was driving a car.

Like a lot of steep hills, Park Street Bristol doesn't look like much on Google Maps. Just 85ft average rise over 0.2miles...

Brandon to Park Row

maps.app.goo.gl

...yet it looks like this on Strava:

Up Park Street, Bristol | Strava Run Segment in Bristol, England, UK, United Kingdom

www.strava.com

I contacted Heinzmann, and this dude has the sole franchise for UK distribution:

http://www.ev-solutions.co.uk/contact/

I was also quoted for "50 or 60 motors" by Heinzmann: £100,000 minimum order. If they're a couple of grand apiece wholesale, who knows what Andreas Schröer will charge for a kit retail. I'm afraid to ask.

His other biz:

TWIKE: Mobility turnaround on three wheels - TWIKE

The energy turnaround "Made by TWIKE" has three wheels, space for two people plus luggage and weighs less than 600 kg.

twike.com

I bet this Heinzmann has beans:

 

[saneagle]

Like a lot of steep hills, Park Street Bristol doesn't look like much on Google Maps. Just 85ft average rise over 0.2miles...

Brandon to Park Row

maps.app.goo.gl

View attachment 59762


...yet it looks like this on Strava:

Up Park Street, Bristol | Strava Run Segment in Bristol, England, UK, United Kingdom

www.strava.com

View attachment 59761


I contacted Heinzmann, and this dude has the sole franchise for UK distribution:

http://www.ev-solutions.co.uk/contact/

I was also quoted for "50 or 60 motors" by Heinzmann: £100,000 minimum order. If they're a couple of grand apiece wholesale, who knows what Andreas Schröer will charge for a kit retail. I'm afraid to ask.

His other biz:

TWIKE: Mobility turnaround on three wheels - TWIKE

The energy turnaround "Made by TWIKE" has three wheels, space for two people plus luggage and weighs less than 600 kg.

twike.com

I bet this Heinzmann has beans:

Park Street is very steep, whatever you made Google say about it. We've had forum members using Heinzman kits, so they must be available somewhere unless they now only sell to ev manufacturers. According to ebike tips it's available for £1675 from ev-solutions.co.uk

Best e-bike conversion kits 2024 - motorise the bike you already have

E-bike conversion kits are an often overlooked option. If you have a bike ready to fit one, they can certainly be an economical choice. But it's not all about saving money as the best kits can also pack a punch in performance terms. Those options may be pricier, but they can give you something...

ebiketips.road.cc

 

[flecc]

We've had forum members using Heinzman kits, so they must be available somewhere unless they now only sell to ev manufacturers. According to ebike tips it's available for £1675 from ev-solutions.co.uk

Best e-bike conversion kits 2024 - motorise the bike you already have

E-bike conversion kits are an often overlooked option. If you have a bike ready to fit one, they can certainly be an economical choice. But it's not all about saving money as the best kits can also pack a punch in performance terms. Those options may be pricier, but they can give you something...

ebiketips.road.cc

For the first two decades from the start of this millennium Kinetics in Glasgow were the cycle dealer with the Heinzmann agency. They also had a lot of expertise with NiCad batteries which Heinzmann exclusively still used at that time.
.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Looks a constant 10% hill - they are not usually that consistent especially in cities



There is a monster disused wagon/rail track near me with that sort of constant gradient but have only been up it on my Bafang BBS conversion

 

[NikkJ]

Thanks, Saneagle; here are some images of the controller and battery labels. When you say solder 25% of the shunt bar, is that just one bar, or what I'm seeing online closing the bars together?

It's a rear-drive motor - NOT a mid-drive.

The max load is Copilot 3-24: 180kg, and Copilot 3-26: 200kg. It does feel very slow for such a large machine, and bear in mind that the disabled individual isn't contributing to the pedalling effort.

Thanks
Nick

 

[NikkJ]

What does the Tandam CoPilot 26-3 weigh? Unless I've missed it, the website doesn't say and neither do the PDF downloads.



Did you see which Bafang mid-drive it was? Cadence sensing makes things easy...

It's a rear-drive motor; no AUW is provided on the website.

 

[guerney]

Park Street is very steep, whatever you made Google say about it.

Nah, looks easy on Google street view too. It's even got shops on.

 

[saneagle]

Thanks, Saneagle; here are some images of the controller and battery labels. When you say solder 25% of the shunt bar, is that just one bar, or what I'm seeing online closing the bars together?

It's a rear-drive motor - NOT a mid-drive.

The max load is Copilot 3-24: 180kg, and Copilot 3-26: 200kg. It does feel very slow for such a large machine, and bear in mind that the disabled individual isn't contributing to the pedalling effort.

Thanks
Nick

Your controller is potted, so no chance to solder the shunt, which is a shame because 13A is very low. If you feel up to it, best option would be to replace the controller with a 20A one.

 

[NikkJ]

Your controller is potted, so no chance to solder the shunt, which is a shame because 13A is very low. If you feel up to it, best option would be to replace the controller with a 20A one.

Upon inspecting the unit, I noticed it was sealed and seemed inaccessible to the circuit without significant cutting. I came across this site over the weekend. Any thoughts on replacing the rear motor with a 750 unit and swapping out the controller that comes with the system? https://varstrom.com/en-gb/products/bafang-750w-48v-rear-hub-cassette-rear-hub-motor-kit_1

Thanks again for all your advice.

 

[saneagle]

Your problem is caused by the controller. I'd replace that first, then see how it goes. You can always replace the battery and motor later if it's still not enough.

750w motor is illegal too, though, to be honest, there's not much chance of getting caught unless something changes.

 

[NikkJ]

Thanks saneagle. Ive located this one - https://ebikesolution.co.uk/products/bafang-brushless-48v-22a-750w-hub-motor-controller-l1019-display-dm03-500c-ekd01