Switzerland gets in first with higher power

[flecc]

Switzerland have beaten Europe in allowing higher power for e-bikes, now 500 watts rating for normal 15 mph limited e-bikes and 1000 watt for the high speed class. Just what's needed for the steeper hills, more info on this link:

Bike Europe report

 

[tillson]

The 500 Watt 15 mph class makes a lot of sense and would cater for a wider market if adopted in the UK. I can't think of any valid reason why anyone would oppose it.

 

[mike killay]

Firstly, the Swiss are recognising that the actual power of the motor is not relevant if you limit the speed of the bike. They are in fact recognising reality in that many motors are already producing 500w
Also, for a practical e-bike, the main limitation as to how much power is actually used is the battery. Not much point in doubling your power if you halve your range.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Firstly, the Swiss are recognising that the actual power of the motor is not relevant if you limit the speed of the bike. They are in fact recognising reality in that many motors are already producing 500w
Also, for a practical e-bike, the main limitation as to how much power is actually used is the battery. Not much point in doubling your power if you halve your range.

Mike,good points on our recent Kudos 'Secret' bike we kept the power to 220 watt so that we could offer a 8 Ah battery (weight 1.9kg) and still maintain a 20 mile range. These bikes are all about compromise and need to consider cost,weight,range,appearance,battery cost/life.If we go to 500 watts then I suspect we are going to need 16 Ah plus batteries to offer a decent range,which means LifePo4 will be too heavy and the cost of replacement batteries becomes expensive. Trying to think ahead maybe 500 watts needs go together with the more efficient crank drive but haven't Shimano already stated that the Nexus/Alfine hub gearing will not take the power of the current 250 watt Bosch crank drive (500 watts with rider power)so maybe a new gear system will be needed-does any of the German or Swiss bikes already offer a 500 or 1000 watt motor?...what gearing do they use?
I don't think its going to be just a matter of upping the motor power,the rest of the bike will have to be compatible and that may be expensive.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[eddieo]

The 350 watt new Bosch with throttle that Flecc linked to last week would be all I would ever need, even if restricted

 

[Blew it]

..... but haven't Shimano already stated that the Nexus/Alfine hub gearing will not take the power of the current 250 watt Bosch crank drive (500 watts with rider power)so maybe a new gear system will be needed-does any of the German or Swiss bikes already offer a 500 or 1000 watt motor?...what gearing do they use?...........

Quite right, None of the current center-drives can be allowed to unleash their full torque through presently available gear clusters or geared hubs. This matter is being addressed prior to the release of a new European built center-driven machine, scheduled for 2013. For obvious reasons, this will be a derailleur geared machine until such time as geared hubs can be modified.

Unfortunately, it takes a very long time and huge amounts of money to pass all the relevent EU tests. Be assured, It will be worth waiting for.

 

[amigafan2003]

The 500 Watt 15 mph class makes a lot of sense and would cater for a wider market if adopted in the UK. I can't think of any valid reason why anyone would oppose it.

Car manufacturers? Moped makers? Motorbike makers?

Those who just plain don't like cyclists?

 

[mike killay]

Once you start upping the power, as said above, all sorts of problems creep in.
Unfortunately, a gear box, equivalent to the strength of a moped one is heavy, so your extra power to climb hills is reduced by heavier gears---which require bigger brakes, stronger back wheels etc.
It might be possible to combine two 250watt motors in one hub. One would be wound normally for 15 mph, the other wound for 8mph and perhaps geared down to 4mph.
Normally, on the flat, the fast motor would be used alone. For hills, the slow motor would be used. This would to a certain extent give the range of a standard 250w motor

 

[Kudoscycles]

Flecc,do you know whether these high powered bikes are allowed to be used on cycle tracks in Switzerland or Germany or are they just for road use? For me a lot of the fun of using these e-bikes would be lost if you cannot take them everywhere a non assist bike can venture.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[amigafan2003]

I think what alot of people are missing re Switzerlands new limits is it's a CHOICE - it doesn't automatically mean every bike will need massive batteries and stronger wheels/gears etc. You'll still be able to buy the low powered lightweight bikes if they suit your needs, but if you need a high powered bike then you have the CHOICE to buy one.

After all - 50cc motorbikes still sell alot - not everyone goes out and buys a 1000cc sports bike.

We could certainly benefit from more choices in this country.

 

[Hero Eco]

BEBA are in discussions with the DFT about different regulations and classes of ebikes for the UK. Will let you know more when we do (and are allowed to!)

 

[Kudoscycles]

Mark,
Out of interest what is BEBA's position on this.
Does BEBA want EN 15194 in the UK?
Does BEba want higher powered e-bikes in the UK?
What power limit would BEBA prefer?
Does BEBA want throttles?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[eddieo]

Join up and find out!

 

[Hero Eco]

Mark,
Out of interest what is BEBA's position on this.
Does BEBA want EN 15194 in the UK?
Does BEba want higher powered e-bikes in the UK?
What power limit would BEBA prefer?
Does BEBA want throttles?
Dave
Kudoscycles

Hi Dave,

BEBA wants what the market wants.

EN15194 yes, but with throttles up to 15.5mph.
A high power category, similar to Switzerland that has different regulations so we can all continue to enjoy what we have.
Still 250W for 'standard' no legal requirement bikes
Yes to throttles, from our study we found users wanted and many needed throttles. It would be a mistake to rule them out.
Thanks
Mark

 

[Cakey]

My off road bike is 1200w crank drive through a Rohloff hub . 5000 miles says it works fine.

 

[flecc]

I think what alot of people are missing re Switzerlands new limits is it's a CHOICE

Exactly. In Germany where they have had permission for 500 watts for the high speed class for well over a year now, many of the offerings are 350 watts, since that is seen as a good performance/range compromise. I think similar would happen with the 15 mph normal e-bike class if more power was permitted, we'd still have most machines at 250 or 350 watts, since it's only a matter of alternative controllers.

 

[Hero Eco]

Mark,
Out of interest what is BEBA's position on this.
Does BEBA want EN 15194 in the UK?
Does BEba want higher powered e-bikes in the UK?
What power limit would BEBA prefer?
Does BEBA want throttles?
Dave
Kudoscycles

Hi Dave,
Did you see my response? Are you in agreement with out views?
thanks
Mark

 

[flecc]

Flecc,do you know whether these high powered bikes are allowed to be used on cycle tracks in Switzerland or Germany or are they just for road use? For me a lot of the fun of using these e-bikes would be lost if you cannot take them everywhere a non assist bike can venture.
Dave
Kudoscycles

I don't know Dave, but I suspect they can on certain tracks. In Austria there's a lot of leeway on this issue according to some there. Of course this question only arises for the high speed class, the higher 500 watt limit on their pedelec class doesn't affect them at all, they can go anywhere a normal bike can go. The same will apply to the EU if their Commision adopts the European parliament's proposed removal of power limits.

 

[Hero Eco]

I don't know Dave, but I suspect they can on certain tracks. In Austria there's a lot of leeway on this issue according to some there. Of course this question only arises for the high speed class, the higher 500 watt limit on their pedelec class doesn't affect them at all, they can go anywhere a normal bike can go. The same will apply to the EU if their Commision adopts the European parliament's proposed removal of power limits.

My understanding is that just the higher speed class are prohibited from cycle tracks..

 

[bode]

We have just got back from a holiday in Switzerland, and I have never seen so many e-bikes in my life! I saw eight in the first hour in the small city of Chur, and later in Lucerne I could see one virtually whenever I looked at a road.

They were mostly of the crank drive variety, but a reasonable number of hubs. They were parked everywhere too; usually with minimum security. For instance, I saw an expensive Swiss Flyer parked in a relatively isolated place with no lock other than an Abus-type framelock on the rear wheel.