Suggestion that delivery companies should check their riders bikes are legal !!!!!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-67242398

 

What ever next .........................

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-67242398

 

What ever next .........................

 

In that article the victim has stated the ebike was travelling at 15mph going up the wrong way. I've read these ebike forum threads a lot and not once have I read that illegal ebikes actually go in the wrong direction on cycle paths where as legal ones do not. This is new information I didn't know before.

 

I was almost hit by an ebike going 30mph down a hill with the motor off on a shared path. I could hear nothing at all from it which was part of the problem. I'm sure it was unpowered.

 

Neither of these situations are related to legal or non legal ebikes they are related to stupid and unsafe riders.

Neither of these situations are related to legal or non legal ebikes they are related to stupid and unsafe riders.

Neither situation is directly related. However stupid and unsafe riders are much more likely than 'normal' riders to choose illegal e-bikes, so there is a strong correlation.

Personally I think this appeal does make sense. Companies should be accountable for what their employees do and what equipment they use. They also should provide proper training.

Personally I think this appeal does make sense. Companies should be accountable for what their employees do and what equipment they use. They also should provide proper training.

 

 

Sorry, ALL 100% of drivers of commercial vehicles from Amazon to your local baker are responsible for their vesicles road worthiness, to a large extent, they have to by law check their vehicles before taking them out (I had to as a driver) lights, tyres, horn, no protruding unsafe to pedestrian metal parts, and so on

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/carry-out-daily-heavy-goods-vehicle-hgv-walkaround-checks

 

You can not place 100% of the burden on the shop, BUT they should be as accountable

Personally I think this appeal does make sense. Companies should be accountable for what their employees do and what equipment they use. They also should provide proper training.

 

Exactly, that why I posted it, nowt really to do with an accident involving an eBike apparently at legal speed.

 

Certainly by me, most all of the Delivery guys using eBikes appear to be clearly using illegal ebikes.

 

However I suspect that the delivery riders might technically be 'self employed', a standard avoiding tax (and insurance claims) regime.

Neither situation is directly related. However stupid and unsafe riders are much more likely than 'normal' riders to choose illegal e-bikes, so there is a strong correlation.

 

Ebikes are still only a minority of bicycles on the road, the vast majority are standard bicycles and those cyclists acting irresponsibly are much more likely to be on a standard bicycle. Only yesterday I spotted a cyclist without lights riding on the pavement and another ignoring traffic lights as the pedestrian was on the opposite side of the road and hadn't started crossing in both instances normal bicycles.

 

I don't accept that what many people perceive to be actually illegal ebikes are illegal and many so called legal ebikes are actually well outside the legal definition. There are lots of legal ways to have a throttle on a ebike which many seem to view as a illegal power control method. There are 4 legal ways to have a throttle on an ebike;

 

1) It was sold before 2016

2) It has been individually tested like some Wisper bikes.

3) It is ebike conversion.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

4) The throttle only operates when the cycle is being pedalled i.e. linked to the cadence sensor.

 

Yet many people keep persisting with their throttle equals always illegal viewpoint. A throttle still remains the most common power control method around the world for ebikes and in my opinion the safest and most desirable option because it gives the fullest power control to the rider. It is also often the only option for getting weaker or disabled riders onto ebikes and dealing with start/stop urban traffic effectively.

Personally I think this appeal does make sense. Companies should be accountable for what their employees do and what equipment they use. They also should provide proper training.

I'm sure we will hear plenty of debate over whether delivery riders (are / are not / should be regarded as) employees.

 

A legal loophole being stretched to breaking point whilst riders earn peanuts and companies blissfully syphon off millions.

Ebikes are still only a minority of bicycles on the road, the vast majority are standard bicycles and those cyclists acting irresponsibly are much more likely to be on a standard bicycle. Only yesterday I spotted a cyclist without lights riding on the pavement and another ignoring traffic lights as the pedestrian was on the opposite side of the road and hadn't started crossing in both instances normal bicycles.

 

I don't accept that what many people perceive to be actually illegal ebikes are illegal and many so called legal ebikes are actually well outside the legal definition. There are lots of legal ways to have a throttle on a ebike which many seem to view as a illegal power control method. There are 4 legal ways to have a throttle on an ebike;

 

1) It was sold before 2016

2) It has been individually tested like some Wisper bikes.

3) It is ebike conversion.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

4) The throttle only operates when the cycle is being pedalled i.e. linked to the cadence sensor.

 

Yet many people keep persisting with their throttle equals always illegal viewpoint. A throttle still remains the most common power control method around the world for ebikes and in my opinion the safest and most desirable option because it gives the fullest power control to the rider. It is also often the only option for getting weaker or disabled riders onto ebikes and dealing with start/stop urban traffic effectively.

 

If I fitted the throttle that came with my Bafang conversion it would operate alone no pedalling, illegal

I'm sure we will hear plenty of debate over whether delivery riders (are / are not / should be regarded as) employees.

 

A legal loophole being stretched to breaking point whilst riders earn peanuts and companies blissfully syphon off millions.

 

 

I don't disagree I just think it is 100% not enforceable until there is an investigate able accident or death

any costs from legislation or regulation will come from the pockets of those paying for delivery and those doing the delivery, with the knock on effect of folk demanding a better quicker service in line with the extra cost and deliverers racing faster to make less money. And who benefits?

I don't disagree I just think it is 100% not enforceable until there is an investigate able accident or death

In a rather crude way enforcement is easy. Just visit every fast food outlet in every major town / city and inspect every bike.

 

But that needs to be balanced against the public interest benefit of the service the riders provide and their need to earn a living.

 

But I agree with your point that nothing gets done until an accident. Resource constraints are the main issue there: the admin overhead of accounting for every action and having 'measurable results'. Convictions and accidents are easier to justify / fund than warnings, advice and other forms of prevention.

These fast food delievry's are only here because people are too lazy to cook or to go out and get their own food, I have never used one and wouldn't do so .

I imagine that there are many more pedestrians knocked down every day by diks in Lycra on road bikes frequently going way faster than 15mph. Was in Holburn recently and almost got creamed twice in 5mins, the speed cyclists zoom through the lights are unbelievable...

I imagine that there are many more pedestrians knocked down every day by diks in Lycra on road bikes frequently going way faster than 15mph. Was in Holburn recently and almost got creamed twice in 5mins, the speed cyclists zoom through the lights are unbelievable...

not 1 has made it past me in ten years never gets old passing them going 35mph on the pavement

 

they tried to swarm me once round the country lanes not a good idea as twig vs 24kg bike with me on it not a good idea cos ill just smash them out of my way

In a rather crude way enforcement is easy. Just visit every fast food outlet in every major town / city and inspect every bike.

 

Indeed, easy peasy.

 

But that needs to be balanced against the public interest benefit of the service the riders provide and their need to earn a living.

 

So if the person delivering a piza is using an illegal eBike, to get it to you a few minutes quicker, what should be done ?

Indeed, easy peasy.

 

 

 

So if the person delivering a piza is using an illegal eBike, to get it to you a few minutes quicker, what should be done ?

The full answer is to fix the system and our society, rather than target an individual 'doing what everyone else is doing'.

 

The immediate answer should be the same as for any other road traffic offence, which starts with 'advice' on what they are doing wrong, through 'strong advice' to prosecution and confiscation.

 

If the illegal ebike was properly operated as a moped, and properly ridden on the road, the same journey saving the same few minutes is perfectly OK.

 

Making it harder to buy 'illegal on the road' ebikes, information campaigns as well as confiscation days by the police, more pressure on the delivery companies, perhaps given the scale of the problem require the companies to provide the bikes.

 

Probably plenty more too.

The rider's app transmits GPS co-ordinates, it'd be easy to identify dangerous illegal ebike use; illegal speeds on level roads etc. The government could obtain that data and determine far more.

If I fitted the throttle that came with my Bafang conversion it would operate alone no pedalling, illegal

 

It's probably illegal anyway if its a high power mid-drive motor well above 250W and delivering perhaps 15A or more of power when climbing hills however again the Department for Transport have stated that if a ebike kit meets the correct spec it doesn't have to go through the type approval process. However most mid-drive kit ebikes would be well above the 250W rating. So the ebike may already be illegal but fitting a throttle too it makes no difference to its illegal status. However if you had a legal ebike kit that adheres to the 250W rating then fitting a twist and go throttle would not be illegal. As far as I know all the Wisper legal twist and go ebikes are lower power hub motor based ebikes and for a ebike kit to be legal with a throttle it has to be a 250W rated motor even if a kit. So you couldn't add a throttle to a mid-drive motor ebike kit as it would still be outside the 250W rating. The type approval exemption still means the converted ebike must meet the correct standards.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

https://wisperbikes.com/product-category/throttle-electric-bikes/

It's probably illegal anyway if its a high power mid-drive motor well above 250W and delivering perhaps 15A or more of power when climbing hills however again the Department for Transport have stated that if a ebike kit meets the correct spec it doesn't have to go through the type approval process. However most mid-drive kit ebikes would be well above the 250W rating. So the ebike may already be illegal but fitting a throttle too it makes no difference to its illegal status. However if you had a legal ebike kit that adheres to the 250W rating then fitting a twist and go throttle would not be illegal. As far as I know all the Wisper legal twist and go ebikes are lower power hub motor based ebikes and for a ebike kit to be legal with a throttle it has to be a 250W rated motor even if a kit. So you couldn't add a throttle to a mid-drive motor ebike kit as it would still be outside the 250W rating. The type approval exemption still means the converted ebike must meet the correct standards.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

https://wisperbikes.com/product-category/throttle-electric-bikes/

 

Mid or hub, to be legal the motor must be rated and marked 250W by the manufacturer. Your own hub motor is rated and marked 500W - [mention=40353]Saracen[/mention]'s motor is more legal than yours.

 

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bought-a-cheap-ebike-kit-from-amazon-warehouse.42958/

Edited October 29, 20232 yr by guerney

The issue is policing and not enough numbers to do it also there is the lack of even the very basic bike equipement on all bikes E or non E, that is a bell/horn and proper lights.

Imv confiscation and a heavy fine should be the minimum, problem is this country is too free and liberal with punishment of minor crimes.

Mid or hub, to be legal the motor must be rated and marked 250W by the manufacturer. Your own hub motor is rated and marked 500W - [mention=40353]Saracen[/mention]'s motor is more legal than yours.

 

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bought-a-cheap-ebike-kit-from-amazon-warehouse.42958/

 

I've still not used that motor its still in the box. Another delayed project but looking forward to getting it on an ebike in the future.

 

Rated and marked by the manufacturer (or the sticker someone has put on it afterwards) is one thing but of course the real wattage is what the motor is actually consuming. As stated by myself and many others in the past across internet forums all over the world rating a hub motor for wattage is utterly pointless in legal terms it is the controller that dictates power. A 500W hub motor is its safe rating for power that in no way means the controller is also 500W. It is the controller that should be rated. It is quite rare for any 250W rated ebike to actually have a 250W maximum hub motor in my experience. I would say a 350W hub motor was a common hub motor fitted.

 

I realise there are some proprietary mid-drive motors with low wattage by Bosch and a few others that only generate 40Nm torque and have fairly low current controllers meant for cheaper leisure bikes. I'm not sure I've ever seen a mid-drive motor kit that is lets say 7A continuous rating and 11A peak to fit the true definition of 250W. Most I've seen are well above that and the 250W rating is purely a sticker to show its speed restricted to 15.5mph and has no connection on the real wattage of the motor. That's all many of these Chinese brands have done nowadays, they have seen how Bosch and others have sold products outside the legislation and got away with it and now they just relabel 750W mid-drive motors and hub motors as 250W and no one seems to question it at all legally. In fact they are typically lower power than most e-mountain bike Bosch motors. They are just electronically restricted to 15.5mph out of the box.

 

I don't know which mid-drive motor he has but fair enough if its 7Ax36V or 5Ax48V continuous rating then its a true 250W mid-drive motor which I can't argue with. I'd be very surprised if it was though.

A 500W hub motor is its safe rating for power that in no way means the controller is also 500W. It is the controller that should be rated.

 

That's your opinion, not law. You told [mention=40353]Saracen[/mention] that his motor is:

 

 

It's probably illegal anyway if its a high power mid-drive motor well above 250W and delivering perhaps 15A or more of power when climbing hills however again the Department for Transport have stated that if a ebike kit meets the correct spec it doesn't have to go through the type approval process. However most mid-drive kit ebikes would be well above the 250W rating. So the ebike may already be illegal but fitting a throttle too it makes no difference to its illegal status. However if you had a legal ebike kit that adheres to the 250W rating then fitting a twist and go throttle would not be illegal. As far as I know all the Wisper legal twist and go ebikes are lower power hub motor based ebikes and for a ebike kit to be legal with a throttle it has to be a 250W rated motor even if a kit. So you couldn't add a throttle to a mid-drive motor ebike kit as it would still be outside the 250W rating. The type approval exemption still means the converted ebike must meet the correct standards.

 

 

It isn't.

That's your opinion, not law. You told [mention=40353]Saracen[/mention] that his motor is:

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't.

What motor is it?

 

Also the problem with ebike law is why we keep talking about it. It's a complete mess and unworkable. Everyone is interpreting it as they want to intepret it with their own bias. Throttles are perfectly legal on many ebikes without issue but so many keep stating the same rubbish. Others claim their motors consuming over 800W are more legal in wattage than others than consume about half that at peak. The whole legislation just seems to be avoided except for fitted pedals and the 15.5mph assistance speed. I've got a Tongsheng mid-drive motor and I'm not going to pretend its legal however I know at peak its about 150W less than a so called legal Bosch motor. It's just a complete farce. I'm in no way saying that ebikes with motors that consume more than 250W should be taken off the road. What gets me is the people that somehow think of their own high power ebike is legal and are damning of others who have less powerful ebikes in legal terms. Bosch was the culprit behind dieselgate they are happy to break rules if they think they can get away with it. They have kept pushing up the torque of their motors because no one is stopping them. I don't want anyone to stop them I just don't like double standards especially when Bosch are unreliable high price products with a relatively short life and are proprietary throw away products. More responsible, repairable products should be allowed the same wattage. There is no reason for ebike legislation not to be clearly defined and easy to understand, no reason at all. I am 100% in favour of getting rid of the current legislation and bringing it inline with other legislation regarding motor wattage being clearly defined. I'm happy with a 800W continuous rating with momentary peaks above that with motor assistance of 15.5mph. Easy to test with a multimeter when climbing hills.

 

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

 

What counts as an EAPC

An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.

It must show either:

• the power output
  
• the manufacturer of the motor
  

It must also show either:

• the battery’s voltage
  
• the maximum speed of the bike
  

Its electric motor:

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
  
• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
  

An EAPC can have more than 2 wheels (for example, a tricycle).

Edited October 29, 20232 yr by Bonzo Banana

What motor is it?

 

A legal Bafang BBS01B mid-motor rated by the manufacturer as 250W - it's permanently engraved on the motor by Bafang. It's legal, it'd be legal even if he increased the controller's limit to it's maximum of 20A using the programming cable and software.

Edited October 29, 20232 yr by guerney