Struggling to choose

[Emo Rider]

Some of the battery, controller, motor and component factories have state of the art manufacturing equipment and systems, as good as you'll find anywhere. I haven't seen that in the bike assembly factories. I can imagine that that is similar with European brands.

Personally, I don't believe that ISO9000 does much for product quality. For that you need proper quality control based on defect avoidance planning and closed loop defect control systems, which aren't specific requirements of ISO9000 unless it's changed since 2003.

I have been finding quality control inspection check sheets in boxed Chinese bikes lately. It made me smile the first time I saw one as this told me they were improving. I did not mention in my previous reply to your post is that there is also a higher emphasis being put on internal audits and corrective action reports. If you are purchasing goods or services from any company working to these standards, you are getting the best. Companies that implimented these changes to ISO 9000 also need to be certified to receive the ISO9001 Standard. Should have mentioned that sooner

 

[trex]

these check sheets may be there because their UK partners insist on them going over known issues. Lots of factories around Shanghai have problems with recruiting and retaining good staff, have to rely on migrant workers. Avoid having your bike made in Shanghai. Made in Tianjin is better.

 

[Kudoscycles]

these check sheets may be there because their UK partners insist on them going over known issues. Lots of factories around Shanghai have problems with recruiting and retaining good staff, have to rely on migrant workers. Avoid having your bike made in Shanghai. Made in Tianjin is better.

Trex.....how would customers know whether their bikes are made in Shanghai or Guangzhou or Tianjin? In fact I don't know of a bike assembler in Shanghai,there are some in the area of Changzhou/Wuxi/Suzhou.
The area of Tianjin is probably the largest number of bike assemblers and there are some component manufacturers including frame builders,these came out of the old Flying Pigeon bike manufacturer,the favourite of Chairman Mao,who made some 500 million bone shakers since WW2,still shipped CKD to Africa.
The area of Changzhou/Suzhou (home of Foxcom-Apple manufacturer) has some smaller bike assemblers,these tend not to have much history and lack experience,maybe that is what Trex is referring to.Having said that there are some important component manufacturers in this region including Suzhou Bafang,the motor manufacturer.
The area of Shenzhen/Guangzhou,these manufacturers came out of the electronics industry,they tend towards the electrics of the bike including lithium battery manufacture.
The area that I avoid for any manufacture is Yiwu/Anjui....which is a shame because it is a poor region of China,it lacks investment,they try to win business by producing cheap product but the quality often suffers.
There is no question that whatever product is bought in China big is best....the big assemblers/manufacturers are often quality checked by big customers,unfortunately that means they demand big volumes,which does not always suit our small market in the UK.
In the 10 years I have done business in China,I have seen it change from low labour cost manufacturing to one based upon investment-all the frames are now robo-welded for example whereas they used to be hand welded.
An interesting country,we in the UK are world traders and innovators,we should play to our strengths,I think that is happening.
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

More than happy to read a good bit of marketing David... but really.

How is building a bike after its ordered by hand any different to lots of other Bosch bikes that are built by hand in Europe (ie KTM's) before or after the order?

Are you suggesting you get better quality because they wait for to order and then build it??

Mass build just means lots of people hand building bikes... no difference in quality, just more of them and therefore economies of scale and buying power might even suggest you get the same quality for less price if you go with a bigger brand that hand builds bikes in Europe... like I don't know, KTM for instance

Just hopefully putting a bit of balance on the discussion.

and I'd by no means suggest we make the perfect bike for this customer. That will be down for them to decide in discussion with their local retailer.

Hi! There is absolutely no reason to think that mass produced bikes are all bad! I am sure the KTMs are all perfect!

The big difference in the way that R&M build their Riese Muller branded bikes is that each bike is built by one engineer and he takes full responsibility for that particular bike. BlueLabel bikes are semi prepared on a very small line, about 4 people, and then again one engineer takes over the finishing and takes full responsibility for that bike. I think this is the main reason we hardly ever get a problem with any bike from Riese and Muller.

As you say, just putting it out there...



All the best

David

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi! There is absolutely no reason to think that mass produced bikes are all bad! I am sure the KTMs are all perfect!

The big difference in the way that R&M build their Riese Muller branded bikes is that each bike is built by one engineer and he takes full responsibility for that particular bike. BlueLabel bikes are semi prepared on a very small line, about 4 people, and then again one engineer takes over the finishing and takes full responsibility for that bike. I think this is the main reason we hardly ever get a problem with any bike from Riese and Muller.

As you say, just putting it out there...



All the best

David

David... this is the KTM factory... in Austria. Each bike is built by two "engineers" and I can find out easily which couple built any single bike, as they take responsibility and sign off the bike, just as you've described.

How many bikes being built a day does a factory have to produce for them to be count as mass produced??

even the stickers are applied by hand, by one "graphics applying engineer"

 

[RobF]

In the days when Claud Butler was a proper manufacturer each bike was supplied with a note signed by the builder.

 

[C-Z]

WOW, I didn't expect to get so many responses! I'm a bit overwhelmed to be honest and seem to have stirred quite a discusson!

In answer to your questions, my budget is up to £1500. I would like to do some commuting (6 miles or so each way) but not every day. The other times I would like to pop out in the evenings to see friends or just go for a ride using the local trails and cycle paths.

I don't have a particular preference for hub or crank driven, just that I have seen a few crank bikes with Bosch motors and they seem nicely put together. I know I will need to try before I buy.

But I still find it hard deciding between them, as apart from the type of motor they all seem to have very similar specifications. What is different between KTM and Kudos for example?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David... this is the KTM factory... in Austria. Each bike is built by two "engineers" and I can find out easily which couple built any single bike, as they take responsibility and sign off the bike, just as you've described.

How many bikes being built a day does a factory have to produce for them to be count as mass produced??

even the stickers are applied by hand, by one "graphics applying engineer"

Looks fantastic! Do your "graphics applying engineers" have degrees or maybe they are PhD's?

Your bikes don't seem to be mass produced, I am surprised you think they are! Do you have a lot of problems?

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

WOW, I didn't expect to get so many responses! I'm a bit overwhelmed to be honest and seem to have stirred quite a discusson!

In answer to your questions, my budget is up to £1500. I would like to do some commuting (6 miles or so each way) but not every day. The other times I would like to pop out in the evenings to see friends or just go for a ride using the local trails and cycle paths.

I don't have a particular preference for hub or crank driven, just that I have seen a few crank bikes with Bosch motors and they seem nicely put together. I know I will need to try before I buy.

But I still find it hard deciding between them, as apart from the type of motor they all seem to have very similar specifications. What is different between KTM and Kudos for example?

Hi CZ,

I think you've hit the nail on the head, it's certainly best to try a few bikes first it will become apparent what the differences are model. to model You may be better off looking at a hub drive bike. With your budget you would get a very nice one with good hydraulic disc brakes and a good quality components.

All the best

David

 

[Kudoscycles]

WOW, I didn't expect to get so many responses! I'm a bit overwhelmed to be honest and seem to have stirred quite a discusson!

In answer to your questions, my budget is up to £1500. I would like to do some commuting (6 miles or so each way) but not every day. The other times I would like to pop out in the evenings to see friends or just go for a ride using the local trails and cycle paths.

I don't have a particular preference for hub or crank driven, just that I have seen a few crank bikes with Bosch motors and they seem nicely put together. I know I will need to try before I buy.

But I still find it hard deciding between them, as apart from the type of motor they all seem to have very similar specifications. What is different between KTM and Kudos for example?

C-Z.....what is the difference between KTM and Kudos....these days it's probably brand awareness. KTM is an old established European brand with a considerable pedigree. Kudos has been established 5 years.
Kudos is Chinese assembled from Chinese manufactured parts,KTM is assembled in Austria,the parts source must have a Chinese element.
Your budget of £1500 is close to the least expensive of the KTM models,they have a Bosch Force27 or 29 at £1690.00,which is about the best value of the Bosch powered bikes but are MTB style not commuter bikes for that you would have to spend more.
Your budget of £1500 would cover all of the Kudos range,may I suggest the Kudos Rapide at £1395.00,it includes the best components that I can currently source and has proven an ideal commuter bike,it has the powerful BPM motor,good forks and hydraulic brakes.
Hope that helps
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

WOW, I didn't expect to get so many responses! I'm a bit overwhelmed to be honest and seem to have stirred quite a discusson!

In answer to your questions, my budget is up to £1500. I would like to do some commuting (6 miles or so each way) but not every day. The other times I would like to pop out in the evenings to see friends or just go for a ride using the local trails and cycle paths.

I don't have a particular preference for hub or crank driven, just that I have seen a few crank bikes with Bosch motors and they seem nicely put together. I know I will need to try before I buy.

But I still find it hard deciding between them, as apart from the type of motor they all seem to have very similar specifications. What is different between KTM and Kudos for example?

Of course if we are pushing our own bikes...

The brand new Wisper Torque bikes start at £1,499, loads of great components, hydraulics etc plus the incredible new Torque drive system. Really state of the art. Almost silent and masses of power for instant hill starting. They'll be in the UK at the end of the month. Certainly worth a try!

All the best

David