Sqeaking brakes

[Triple]

Sorry to sound patronising, but how much experience do you have of riding an Ebike on the road? From your comments, I'm going to guess not very much. Anybody with any amount of practical experience riding normal electric bikes would know how much better hydraulic disc brakes are for such bikes. There's absolutely no comparison with rim brakes, which are maybe acceptable on light-weight road bikes, but are a liability on a 25kg electric bike with a heavy rider on board.

You're very sure of your opinions, vfr! I'm left wondering how you might believe the extra kilos carried by an ebike are so very different from the extra kilos carried in pannier bags, given you're sure I've not very much experience of riding an ebike?

I wouldn't suggest that from your comments, you've little practical experience of setting up bike brakes so they're working correctly - perhaps we've just had very different setups on bikes we've ridden?

Replacing cables with hydraulic pushrods definitely improves brake performance as frictional losses are minimised (but increases complexity and when used with disc brakes, introduces the danger of losing all braking down a long hill), my points were regarding disc over rim brakes however.

I've ridden ebikes over a relatively short distance - not quite 2000 miles - and have found neither type of brake is fussy about the type of kilos they carry. Both will lock up a front wheel under 10mph with my 80-90kg plus 15-20kg of bike, on a dry road.

I'm fully aware that's all that matters to most, my post above was directed at keener ebikers who might be interested in what the sales blurb for disc brakes fails to mention.

There's no doubt disc brakes are here to stay, they're even fitted to supermarket bargain bikes - how much is due to fashion and profit versus real world gains for bikes used on roads is an interesting debate. The bigger the disc, the better it works.

 

[soundwave]

my bike can go 35mph on the flat v brakes would be useless lol

 

[vfr400]

You're very sure of your opinions, vfr!

That's right. I've been building, repairing, designing and riding electric bikes for 10 years. I worked as a mechanic in an Ebike shop for three years. I've helped many popular ebike brands with their designs and specifications. I've ridden just about every type and brand of electric bike. I'm not only very sure of my opinions, but in this case, I'm very sure I'm right.

PS. I'm a chartered mechanical engineer with a proper 4 year degree in mechanical engineering from a proper university.

All that qualification, expertise and experience is unnecessary. The moment you fit hydraulic brakes, the difference is obvious. There's no way back to anything else. Anybody will see the same.

There's all sorts of people in the world. Some believe in God, some believe in Aliens, some believe the Earth is flat, some think that Brexit is a bad thing, so I'm not surprised that some think that rim brakes are great. Enjoy them while you're still alive, which might not be as long as you hope, so take care.

 

[Triple]

my bike can go 35mph on the flat v brakes would be useless lol

Vfr, you seem to be focussing on cables vs hydraulics, I tried to make this clear in my last post I'm talking about the advantages of rim brakes over disc.

Your opinion that I havent ridden ebikes much (if at all) couldn't be much further from reality if you tried! I tried to make this clear in my post above.

 

[soundwave]

a race bike dont weigh 20kg plus and the rider on top thats not a stick insect

and race bikes are now going to disc brakes anyway.

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2019 Specialized S-Works Shiv Disc Limited Edition Di2 Triathlon

 

[Deleted member 25121]

View attachment 31872

Vfr, you seem to be focussing on cables vs hydraulics, I tried to make this clear in my last post I'm talking about the advantages of rim brakes over disc.

How much mud, grit and water do those racing bikes go through?

 

[Triple]

a race bike dont weigh 20kg plus and the rider on top thats not a stick insect

and race bikes are now going to disc brakes anyway.

No, but they have to dump much more energy than a portly lady careering down Totnes high street, or some other death-defying descent which nothing less than a disc brake and fork-mounted caliper could deal with.

Energy increases with the square of speed, linearly by mass.

Someone will suggest the TdF don't cancel wet descents, next.

 

[RossG]

Count how may bikes you can see here that were used on this year's TdF had Discs......nuff said.

The Fastest Bikes of the 2020 Tour de France

Electronic shifting, aero climbing bikes, and more disc brakes than ever before—find it all at this year’s TdF.

www.bicycling.com

 

[KirstinS]

My tuppence is a decent midrange hydro brake can be hugely improved by a larger rotor and an adaptor

I used a massive 203mm rotor on old bike. New bike has 180 front and 160 year but much better brakes (m7000 shimano for interest )

But I do use my bike off road a lot

 

[Triple]

Count how may bikes you can see here that were used on this year's TdF had Discs......nuff said.

The Fastest Bikes of the 2020 Tour de France

Electronic shifting, aero climbing bikes, and more disc brakes than ever before—find it all at this year’s TdF.

www.bicycling.com

That's one way of searching the facts - counting pictures which sponsors have approved of.

Otoh, I read this, some of which I posted above, "during the first stages, most teams rolled out on bikes with disc brakes (above the finish of Stage 5). Ironically, most of the disc brakes were on aero bikes used for flat stages, where brakes make no difference in the bike’s performance.

As the race continued, most racers quietly switched back to rim brakes. The yellow jersey contenders had used rim brakes from the beginning. Why?

If disc brakes have an advantage, it’s on the vertiginous descents of the Alps and Pyrenees. Since racers have moved to wider tires with more grip, descents have become much more exciting, with higher speeds and more attacks than in the past. Braking is more important than ever. And yet, there was hardly a disc brake in sight.

What happened? I asked a former mechanic of the French national team. He indicated that the introduction of disc brakes was due to sponsors’ demands. With the big component and bike makers pushing discs, it was useful if pro racers used the new technology.

So why did the racers use rim brakes when their sponsors wanted them to use discs? If discs were superior, racers would have used them, especially in the mountains. After all, a real advantage on the many descents of this year’s Tour would have outweighed the relatively small risk of losing time due to a wheel change."


I see the benefits of both applications, and continue to prefer rim brakes for all the benefits I mention on good road/touring bikes. If I'm going on a day's serious off-roading then I'll use a bike with discs, naturally.

It's good the bike industry has learned how to make money better - not so long ago if you bought one and oiled the chain every now and then, the bike shop wouldn't see you for another quarter century or more! It's fascinating seeing the scores of different brake pads on the shelves, flanked by specialist fluids, adjustment devices, hoses, syringes, caliper repair kits and a myriad of other shinily-packaged products.

What I'd like to know is where are those aerodynamic-aid nosecones - a fellow at Uni had one, totally ace. Zipper or something - I wonder how much more battery range they'd give?

 

[RossG]

Of course Pro Cycling is all about sponsorship, it pays for everything literally the lot. We're seeing a lot of WiFi mech being used on tours these days but from what I can make out it's not popular with riders. All very clever of course but what are the advantages ?
Regardless of sponsorship discs are being used more and more on tours so expect to see an increase in their appearance. I've even heard talk of wifi brakes ! not sure I fancy that.

 

[vfr400]

View attachment 31872



Vfr, you seem to be focussing on cables vs hydraulics, I tried to make this clear in my last post I'm talking about the advantages of rim brakes over disc.

Your opinion that I havent ridden ebikes much (if at all) couldn't be much further from reality if you tried! I tried to make this clear in my post above.

That's an old article. If you saw the Toure de France this year, most of them have changed over to discs.
I never mentioned cables, except that OP has cable brakes.

 

[soundwave]

air brakes

 

[mike killay]

I think that the answer is that we are talking about different aspects of cycling.
The off roader, ploughing through mud and grit needs disc brakes simply because they work better in those circumstances.
The racer, usually riding on smooth tarmac does not have the off roaders problems.
The sedate, never on rough surfaces, sit up and beg style rider only needs strong reliable brakes, and for this type of cyclist, modern rim vee brakes are more than powerful and reliable enough.

 

[vfr400]

I think that the answer is that we are talking about different aspects of cycling.
The off roader, ploughing through mud and grit needs disc brakes simply because they work better in those circumstances.
The racer, usually riding on smooth tarmac does not have the off roaders problems.
The sedate, never on rough surfaces, sit up and beg style rider only needs strong reliable brakes, and for this type of cyclist, modern rim vee brakes are more than powerful and reliable enough.

I have hydraulic disc brakes on my main road bike. They're infinitely better than the high-end rim brakes that I have on my other one. The modulation is better so you can put the tyres right on the edge of slipping for maximum safe braking, while as the rim brakes are less consistent and can easily grab when braking hard. You will see most road bike users changing over to hydraulic brakes over the next few years. In this year's TDF about 50% of the riders changed from rim to disc brakes. I predict at least 75% next year. There's no comparison with rim brakes. The only advantage of rim brakes is the few grams weight saving for steep ascents, but the advantage you get from discs when descending is massive by comparison.

 

[EddiePJ]

I have hydraulic disc brakes on my main road bike. They're infinitely better than the high-end rim brakes that I have on my other one. The modulation is better so you can put the tyres right on the edge of slipping for maximum safe braking, while as the rim brakes are less consistent and can easily grab when braking hard. You will see most road bike users changing over to hydraulic brakes over the next few years. In this year's TDF about 50% of the riders changed from rim to disc brakes. I predict at least 75% next year. There's no comparison with rim brakes. The only advantage of rim brakes is the few grams weight saving for steep ascents, but the advantage you get from discs when descending is massive by comparison.

Two further disadvantages of rim brakes, is wear to the wheel rim, and in the case of hopefully now extinct chrome rims, no stopping ability at all in wet conditions.

 

[KirstinS]

I think that the answer is that we are talking about different aspects of cycling.
The off roader, ploughing through mud and grit needs disc brakes simply because they work better in those circumstances.
The racer, usually riding on smooth tarmac does not have the off roaders problems.
The sedate, never on rough surfaces, sit up and beg style rider only needs strong reliable brakes, and for this type of cyclist, modern rim vee brakes are more than powerful and reliable enough.

I agree on your different uses argument but only up to a point

What's reliable enough mean?

I bought a hybrid , city style, sedate commuter . So 700c wheels but pretty narrow. It was, well ok.

Until I converted to electric. The extra weight alone made hydraulic discs an essential upgrade . Forget the extra speed

The number of times the ability to brake very sharply has saved my bacon is unreal

I wouldn't be without them And they are cheap hydro with small discs.

Today I had to go from about 20mph to zero in a fee metres due to an plonke in a massive rental van he clearly wasnt used to (I assume). I only survived a bad crash due to very good hydro twin pot hydro and discs to go with on my mtb. Tyres squealed and skidded and I had to hang my body weight way off the back to control it.

Even my cheapo hydro wouldn't ha e stopped me in time. Rim brakes ? I'd have hit it at 15mph minimum

The control, modulation and ultimately the stopping distance....I just don't understand why folk deny it

 

[vfr400]

The control, modulation and ultimately the stopping distance....I just don't understand why folk deny it

Three possibilities i can think of:-
1. They're nuts.
2. They haven't tried them.
3. They don't have disc fixing points on their bikes and they're jealous.

 

[soundwave]

Three possibilities i can think of:-
1. They're nuts.
2. They haven't tried them.
3. They don't have disc fixing points on their bikes and they're jealous.

they changed the rules

UCI finally approves disc brakes for road racing

Do disc brakes belong in the peloton?

www.bikeradar.com

 

[vfr400]

they changed the rules

UCI finally approves disc brakes for road racing

Do disc brakes belong in the peloton?

www.bikeradar.com

I think these guys have enough experience to make valid comments.
Cannondale
“We take rider safety seriously at Cannondale and support the use of disc brakes precisely because, by offering superior control and modulation, they make for better and safer riding overall.
Lalonde continues. “However, with the current technology, the greatest potential benefit for rider safety would be to accelerate the adoption of discs, not impede its progress.”
Sram
“SRAM obviously supports the use and proliferation of disc brakes in the professional road peloton. Disc brakes are simply a better system of braking that provides more power, better modulation, and a safer environment due to their superior performance,”
Merida
“Merida believes in the future of disc brakes on road bikes as we believe that the added safety aspects — better modulation and braking performance in particular in the wet and when cornering, avoidance of rim heat-up on long descents, et cetera — will help the prevention of crashes"