Speed Pedelecs

[flecc]

If you passed your test before February 2001 you would not need a CBT.
https://www.gov.uk/cbt-compulsory-basic-training/overview

Also worth pointing out that some companies are already selling s pedelecs in the UK. Often with no mention of the legal side, unlike 250 watt motors there is no grey area.
Example:
Kalkhoff Endeavour BS10 XT 50cm

Wisper - David, just wondered what would happen if someone tried to register this bike and adhered to the laws currently set out for mopeds? (i.e. registered, registration plates, insurance, pre 2001 licence or CBT etc).

These bikes have a rear number plate bracket already in place and have the EU's EN15194 certification. The certificate copy is available to buyers and armed with that there is no reason why the Vehicle Inspectorate could not approve use as a moped, subject to compliance with moped regulations as David has said.

After all, the petrol powered bike-motor kits and bicycles like the VeloSolex of the 1940s to the 1980s were all registered, plated and licenced for road use as light motor cycles, as were their predecessors from the 1930s on, the pedal equipped autocycles, so precedents exist.

 

[flecc]

So how do AVE get 45kph from 350 watt motors?What true wattage is needed to maintain 45 kph on the flat?

The answer is that the 350 watts is the legal rating , not the actual power, and also that these are pedal-assist bikes, not motor vehicles. Our legal 250 watt motors are never less than 300 watts and mostly between 400 and 700 watts of actual maximum power. The Bosch "250" watt motor is at least a true 500 watts so we can assume the 350 watt rated one probably outputs around 700 watts maximum. That's sufficient to give enough assistance to supplement a fit rider's 200 watts to maintain 45 kph/28 mph in still air on the flat.

And of course we have members who do own and ride these S class bikes at those speeds, at their own risk of course. Not all are the recent German S bikes, we have a couple of members with the Swizzbee and some with Biketec Flyers, both Swiss makes complying with the high speed class that Switzerland has outside of the EU.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I agree, I would most certainly imagine that the Kalkhoff bikes will have Type Approval in Germany which would be valid in any EU country, but this would be worth checking. However I don't understand how S class pedalecs could pass EN15194 as the motor is over 250W rated, and the top speed is in access of 25kph?

 

[GaRRy]

The big question is will a S class get through this

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/contents/made

 

[flecc]

That is odd David, though as I've observed with the ample precedents, I don't see any certificate being necessary. Some of the petrol assisted bikes and autocycles are still registered and occasionally taken on the roads by enthusiasts, indeed there clubs for the enthusiasts who have rallies and go on rides together. The Vehicle Inspectorate could find it difficult to reject an electric-assist version in these circumstances.

P.S. On second thoughts, the certificate of conformity may be the EU type approval one, rather than the EN one.
.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

My understanding is that you could register an s pedelec in the UK. However I have not tried it would be very interesting to know if anyone has done this.

 

[GaRRy]

That is odd David, though as I've observed with the ample precedents, I don't see any certificate being necessary. Some of the petrol assisted bikes and autocycles are still registered and occasionally taken on the roads by enthusiasts, indeed there clubs for the enthusiasts who have rallies and go on rides together. The Vehicle Inspectorate could find it difficult to reject an electric-assist version in these circumstances.

But those old vehicles are almost certainly making use of grandfather rights which would not apply to a new vehicle.

 

[Scimitar]

If you register your new S-pedelec properly, you will not be allowed to ride on cycle or shared paths.

This would be the worst of all worlds, a slow two-wheeler with dodgy riding dynamics which you could only use on the road.

Didn't bother the hundreds of thousands of putput owners in the late 40s and 50s. The major appeal to many, many people is the low running cost, and for urban areas to keep up with most traffic with all that extra POWER (500W isn't exactly earth shattering, though).
There is a need for this class, I believe, and as time goes on more people will buy them when they realise the advantages of fuelling costing tuppence.

 

[easycommuter]

Subject to working out Battery Cost against Petrol, being the only person with a Veh Reg on my bike would not concern me. The bit that is a show stopper is being forbidden to use it on a cycle way

Where I live, there are a lot of cycleways, which could make up part or all of a 16 to 18 mile (round trip) commute. Choosing a cycleway for parts of the commute either can save time or dramatically increase my sense of safety on the bike

Maybe I could:-
>devise a special foldable Veh Reg Plate/or a cover for the Veh Reg plate &
>promise myself not to go more than 15mph on a cycleway. (actually I don't think I'd want to go any
faster than this on the cycleways)
and go from there.

That would hold up in my own court of law, but I can't see it holding up if there was an accident on the Cycle way and a UK court of law

Does anybody have a GPS linked speed limiter for e-bikes

 

[GaRRy]

Didn't bother the hundreds of thousands of putput owners in the late 40s and 50s. The major appeal to many, many people is the low running cost, and for urban areas to keep up with most traffic with all that extra POWER (500W isn't exactly earth shattering, though).
There is a need for this class, I believe, and as time goes on more people will buy them when they realise the advantages of fuelling costing tuppence.

Trouble is in the 40's and 50's there were nowhere the number of cars etc we have now. Still dont see why people think a vehicle that goes almost as fast as a moped should be allowed with out all the testing and restrictions that go with it (as if have all the restrictions might as well just use a moped).

You might as well campaign for the scrapping of all those restrictions on a moped and what do you think the likelyhood of that is ?.

 

[flecc]

But those old vehicles are almost certainly making use of grandfather rights which would not apply to a new vehicle.

Doesn't matter, it's still a precedent sufficient to justify the Inspectorate testing in accordance with today's laws on moped use. And there's no grandfathers rights on MOT testing, those cyclemotors and autocycles still in use pass today's m/c MOT tests. It shows how cursory such tests can be for oddball bike conversions, since the brakes on the old bikes the motors are fitted on are usually rubbish.

 

[flecc]

Trouble is in the 40's and 50's there were nowhere the number of cars etc we have now. Still dont see why people think a vehicle that goes almost as fast as a moped should be allowed with out all the testing and restrictions that go with it (as if have all the restrictions might as well just use a moped).

You might as well campaign for the scrapping of all those restrictions on a moped and what do you think the likelyhood of that is ?.

But those are your personal views Garry, clearly the governments of Germany and Switzerland, probably the most law abiding and well ordered nations on earth, disagree.

And so do I, since up to 28 mph is something sport cyclists do routinely everywhere on our roads, and many cyclists including me are happy to fly downhill at far higher speeds such as over 40 mph in the right circumstances. Cycling's race riders ride downhill at up to over 60 mph and ordinary people on recumbents can hit up to 75 mph. OK, they aren't the safest of speeds on our roads, but in comparison one should hardly get too excited about up to 28 mph. Remember, that's the maximum assist speed with a fit rider and on most of these with crank drives only possible if they have the highest gear range sets fitted or the DualDrive or Rohloff. The majority of crank drive S class bikes sold can only assist to about either 21 or 24 mph, due to them using common gear set ranges.

 

[GaRRy]

Doesn't matter, it's still a precedent sufficient to justify the Inspectorate testing in accordance with today's laws on moped use. And there's no grandfathers rights on MOT testing, those cyclemotors and autocycles still in use pass today's m/c MOT tests. It shows how cursory such tests can be for oddball bike conversions, since the brakes on the old bikes the motors are fitted on are usually rubbish.

So what about seat belts, Co2 emmisions, Noise etc etc. The MOT is full of exceptions for grandfather rights.

 

[flecc]

So what about seat belts, Co2 emmisions, Noise etc etc. The MOT is full of exceptions for grandfather rights.

True, but those are legislated exceptions, there are no legislated grandfather rights for the bikes I'm speaking of. The somewhat cursory nature of m/c MOT testing just looks after them. I know from my own experience of two-wheeler MOT tests that bikes with an added motor or such as the VeloSolex just get a nod-though after looking at tyre treads and checking the brakes actually act. They just don't get treated seriously by testers used to checking today's superbikes, hardly surprising.

 

[GaRRy]

But those are your personal views Garry, clearly the governments of Germany and Switzerland, probably the most law abiding and well ordered nations on earth, disagree.

And so do I, since up to 28 mph is something sport cyclists do routinely everywhere on our roads, and many cyclists including me are happy to fly downhill at far higher speeds such as over 40 mph in the right circumstances. Cycling's race riders ride downhill at up to over 60 mph and ordinary people on recumbents can hit up to 75 mph. OK, they aren't the safest of speeds on our roads, but in comparison one should hardly get too excited about up to 28 mph. Remember, that's the maximum assist speed with a fit rider and on most of these with crank drives only possible if they have the highest gear range sets fitted or the DualDrive or Rohloff. The majority of crank drive S class bikes sold can only assist to about either 21 or 24 mph, due to them using common gear set ranges.

Actually as I understand it they are starting to have second thoughts and in China they have brought in draconian restrictions on ebikes following to far to many accidents and deaths caused by less restricted ebikes..

As for the rest you are quoting the exceptions rather than the norm (a cycle race is hardly like cycling in the rush hour). The current regulations allow for assistance up to speeds which most reasonable fit people can sustain for a reasonable time under normal road conditions. What you seem to want to support is that we should all be able to travel at the speed of these exceptions (or at least more than normal).

It is also a fact that most motorcycle accidents happen in 30 mph zones and are usually caused by a driver who "did not see them". Now if a motor bike is hard to see at 30 mph (most of which have their head lights on) a bicycle must be virtually invisible.

I really can see the attraction and why people want them. However my main objection is that I feel that if introduced this would be followed by a series of bad accidents and incidents followed by the usual knee jerk reaction to ban and restrict all ebikes not just 'S' class. The UK Government (and others) have all but legislated motorcyles of the road by making getting a license such a pain that people dont bother and I would hate to see the same happen to ebikes (All in the name of safety).

 

[GaRRy]

True, but those are legislated exceptions, there are no legislated grandfather rights for the bikes I'm speaking of. The somewhat cursory nature of m/c MOT testing just looks after them. I know from my own experience of two-wheeler MOT tests that bikes with an added motor or such as the VeloSolex just get a nod-though after looking at tyre treads and checking the brakes actually act. They just don't get treated seriously by testers used to checking today's superbikes, hardly surprising.

Because most of the modern tests (eg rolling road) dont apply to them. Now if the bike was new I bet they would not be so easy going.

 

[flecc]

Actually as I understand it they are starting to have second thoughts and in China they have brought in draconian restrictions on ebikes following to far to many accidents and deaths caused by less restricted ebikes..

As for the rest you are quoting the exceptions rather than the norm (a cycle race is hardly like cycling in the rush hour). The current regulations allow for assistance up to speeds which most reasonable fit people can sustain for a reasonable time under normal road conditions. What you seem to want to support is that we should all be able to travel at the speed of these exceptions (or at least more than normal).

It is also a fact that most motorcycle accidents happen in 30 mph zones and are usually caused by a driver who "did not see them". Now if a motor bike is hard to see at 30 mph (most of which have their head lights on) a bicycle must be virtually invisible.

I really can see the attraction and why people want them. However my main objection is that I feel that if introduced this would be followed by a series of bad accidents and incidents followed by the usual knee jerk reaction to ban and restrict all ebikes not just 'S' class. The UK Government (and others) have all but legislated motorcyles of the road by making getting a license such a pain that people dont bother and I would hate to see the same happen to ebikes (All in the name of safety).

I haven't made it clear Garry, but I'm not supporting the introduction of these high speed classes, just giving the arguments why they are acceptable to many and to the two nations mentioned. Personally, like you, I don't see the point when mopeds are so much more practical for those speeds and have other advantages like weather protection. That's especially true when one considers the S class have to carry number plates, tax discs, have insurance and driving licence, helmet use and MOTs at over three years. In Germany and Switzerland only some of those apply, but I doubt the UK government would be quite as easy if they were introduced.

I'm sure the reality is that few would ever adopt them if they were introduced here in that fully regulated manner.

But we are safe, the pedelec class will never be legally affected by what happens to the S class if introduced, they are a class of motor vehicles and pedelecs are not.

 

[flecc]

Because most of the modern tests (eg rolling road) dont apply to them. Now if the bike was new I bet they would not be so easy going.

. Not true Garry, my CB500R test was conducted each year until recently in under two minutes, very much as I described as a nod-through. It was just treads, static brake operation check, lights and horn check and a shake of the headstock. The certificate took longer to produce!

No cyclemotor on a bike will be treated any more seriously by the trade.

 

[Scimitar]

That is odd David, though as I've observed with the ample precedents, I don't see any certificate being necessary. Some of the petrol assisted bikes and autocycles are still registered and occasionally taken on the roads by enthusiasts, indeed there clubs for the enthusiasts who have rallies and go on rides together. The Vehicle Inspectorate could find it difficult to reject an electric-assist version in these circumstances.

P.S. On second thoughts, the certificate of conformity may be the EU type approval one, rather than the EN one.
.

Indeed; and if a putput/autocycle motor was replaced with an electric unit, it's nothing more than a simple change of motive power and adequately covered under any regulations I can think of. We have been free to swap engines and powerplants to our hearts' content for ages, have we not? A putput putting out a HP or so would be similarly powered with a 750W motor (not accurate, but who cares).

 

[SRS]

The wobble bit was more of a joke lol. Now a 30 mile commute needs an engine in my opinion. A 125 cc scooter or a real motorbike. 30 miles is like going on holiday for a Yorkshire man!

The "wheel bearings" was my little joke.

Why a scooter or a motorbike?

I think the best solution for safety all round would be to invest in a decent "S" class bike and a large volvo estate.

Stick the "S" class in the boot and you are on your way. Safe as houses and you won't even have to clean your bike.