Specialist e-bike retail businesses at risk as insurers hike policies (despite data showing no blame)

[mark sutton]

Hi all,

Bit of a long read for you here, but one that I think will interest everyone.

I've been conducting a bit of an investigation into the reality behind 'electric bike' fires and consistently found that reputable manufacturers have a near zero rate of instance, but are facing the brunt of headlines regardless.

Insurers are now pricing specialists out of policy cover, risking the closure of hundreds of bike shops that explicitly do not handle modifications, kits or anything non-standard. Meanwhile, the direct-market unregulated kits that the data shows are causing the adverse headlines are landing unchecked.

The findings here

E-bike fires - the facts

 

[Az.]

Petrol lobby is doing what they can to protect their profits. Insurers are clearly in their camp. For example you can't buy insurance for speed pedelecs.

 

[saneagle]

I read that article and could see a little bias in what the ebike ships and established brands were saying; however, one point did come out of it, which people with Chinese batteries or cheap bikes need to be aware of. It concerns chargers with the standard 5.5mm jack, not ones with the RCA type 3 pin connectors, nor the co-ax type. It's something I have personal experience of, though no fire in my case.

The charger has large capacitors in it. When you connect it to a switched on battery with the charger switched off, the inrush makes a spark. The spark is mainly harmless, but it will erode the connector. The problem comes when the spark welds the jack to the socket. When you pull the jack out of the battery after charging, the spring blade inside the socket gets pulled onto the central pin, causing a short circuit. In my battery, there was no charge fuse, so there were massive sparks that vaporised the metal in the socket. The metal itself becomes the fuse, so it was just big sparks; however, there could be a small chance that something more sinister happens, like melted plastic or even burning plastic. Ideally, these chargers need something to stop the inrush, or shouldn't use a 5.5mm jack.

 

[flecc]

I've previously argued long and hard in here that we should not be calling our machines e-bikes, it's just asking for this sort of trouble, so I'm pleased to see at the end of the article that Peter Collard argues similar:

"I personally feel that before irreparable damage is done to the reputable electric bike market with these ‘fires’ headlines, either we must have much stricter standards for cheap imports, or start calling mid-drive pedal assist e-bikes something completely different, so they are not all clumped together by mainstream media."

"Bike" is just too loose a term, used as an abbreviation for motorcycles and "Bikers" for their riders, while we on our EAPCs are cyclists.

There is no such thing as an e-bike anyway:

Our machines are electric assist pedal cycles, EAPCs and bicycles in law.

E-machines not compliant with that regulation are e-motor vehicles, so are Motorcycles, Mopeds, Scooters etc., never bicycles in law.
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[mark sutton]

Petrol lobby is doing what they can to protect their profits. Insurers are clearly in their camp. For example you can't buy insurance for speed pedelecs.

At one stage you'd have been called a conspiracy theorist for such an idea, but it's not beyond the realms of belief that influence could be at play because evidence surely isn't (though I have seen no evidence to support).

 

[Az.]

"I personally feel that before irreparable damage is done to the reputable electric bike market with these ‘fires’ headlines, either we must have much stricter standards for cheap imports, or start calling mid-drive pedal assist e-bikes something completely different, so they are not all clumped together by mainstream media."

Where is dividing line? Hub motors are meh and mid-drives are cool?

 

[Az.]

At one stage you'd have been called a conspiracy theorist for such an idea, but it's not beyond the realms of belief that influence could be at play because evidence surely isn't (though I have seen no evidence to support).

Yep... there is no evidence of any collusion, but I see no other logical explanation why you can't buy insurance. Anyway it is how I would do it if I were an oligarch billionaire and wanted to protect my interests.

 

[saneagle]

I've previously argued long and hard in here that we should not be calling our machines e-bikes, it's just asking for this sort of trouble, so I'm pleased to see at the end of the article that Peter Collard argues similar:

"I personally feel that before irreparable damage is done to the reputable electric bike market with these ‘fires’ headlines, either we must have much stricter standards for cheap imports, or start calling mid-drive pedal assist e-bikes something completely different, so they are not all clumped together by mainstream media."

"Bike" is just too loose a term, used as an abbreviation for motorcycles and "Bikers" for their riders, while we on our EAPCs are cyclists.

There is no such thing as an e-bike anyway:

Our machines are electric assist pedal cycles, EAPCs and bicycles in law.

E-machines not compliant with that regulation are e-motor vehicles, so are Motorcycles, Mopeds, Scooters etc., never bicycles in law.
.

Ebike is just short for electric bike. Nobody except you calls them EAPCs these days, nor pedelecs.

 

[flecc]

Where is dividing line? Hub motors are meh and mid-drives are cool?

Peter's omission, not mine, since at his motor repair centre he only repairs mid drives, so I could only quote what he actually said.
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[flecc]

Ebike is just short for electric bike. Nobody except you calls them EAPCs these days, nor pedelecs.

And that is precisely the trouble, brought upon ourselves in increasingly costly ways. Our careless loose generic naming even led to our UK politicians lumping e-scooters in with our machines, despite them being motor vehicles requiring a driving licence and ours not.
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[Az.]

Peter's omission, not mine

Yes, of course. I was referring only to what Peter said. He didn't really think it through.

 

[flecc]

To further highlight just what a mistake it is for us to call our machines e-bikes, short for electric bikes, I've just noticed this at the head of a Halfords web page:

"PLEASE NOTE: In the UK you must be over 14 years old to purchase and ride an electric bike but you won't need a licence, nor do you need to register it or pay vehicle tax."

Do you see the problem now, Halfords giving the clear impression that applies to anything called an electric bike, such as most Sur-rons. Little wonder there is so much illegal use, but of course that Halfords statement is simply not true.
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[Az.]

To further highlight just what a mistake it is for us to call our machines e-bikes, short for electric bikes.

On contrary my friend. Years of conspiracy and misinformation have finally paid off. Regulators are after non existing e-bikes while we all have EAPCs.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Seems fair to me that insurers charge more, fires can start for lots of reasons but lithium ion battery packs caught up in such fires can cause huge damage. The Ebike battery pack doesn't even have to be the cause of the fire to represent huge danger. There have been container ships heavily damaged by electric vehicles, I know of one that sank but there have probably been many incidents on container ships and insurance has jumped up a lot for such ships now that transport Electric vehicles. The point is the fire isn't always started by an electric vehicle so it doesn't matter how well you make them they are still a huge risk once the cells get exposed to fire. It's like saying this stick of dynamite is safer than another because of higher quality manufacturing. I totally get why insurers are doing this. It has yet to be proven which ebikes are safest anyway, cheaper ebikes sell in much higher quantities and ebikes used for gig economy couriers are often used for an extreme level of miles. There are lots of variables that can lead to failure.

 

[flecc]

On contrary my friend. Years of conspiracy and misinformation have finally paid off. Regulators are after non existing e-bikes while we all have EAPCs.

But they don't go after them do they, there is no policing to speak of. They'll probably just make more unsuitable regulations that are a nuisance to us all, kidding themselves that it's a problem solved.

The most likely main threat is that every kit, modified or home constructed EAPC will have to be taken through testing at an official test station. Not a bad thing in itself, but a huge inconvenience with so few test stations nationally. Northern Ireland doesnt even have one, so for anyone there it's carrying or shipping the machine to Britain via the ferry. It;s this sort of thing that can kill the EAPC business.
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[Az.]

But they don't go after them do they, there is no policing to speak of. They'll probably just make more unsuitable regulations that are a nuisance to us all, kidding themselves that it's a problem solved.

The most likely main threat is that every kit, modified or home constructed EAPC will have to be taken through testing at an official test station. Not a bad thing in itself, but a huge inconvenience with so few test stations nationally. Northern Ireland doesnt even have one, so for anyone there it's carrying or shipping the machine to Britain via the ferry. It;s this sort of thing that can kill the EAPC business.
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OMG... you disagree with my joke? Please switch your sense of humor chip on

Do you really think how we call our bikes make any difference at all? If they want to make it awkward for all of us, they will do it regardless of what we write here.
Few moths ago BMW ended up in a big ball of fire on one of main roads in my city. For few days I had to drive around while they were fixing huge hole in the road. Somehow nobody is making a big deal about it or introducing sanctions on non reputable manufacturers like BMW.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

OMG... you disagree with my joke? Please switch your sense of humor chip on

Do you really think how we call our bikes make any difference at all? If they want to make it awkward for all of us, they will do it regardless of what we write here.
Few moths ago BMW ended up in a big ball of fire on one of main roads in my city. For few days I had to drive around while they were fixing huge hole in the road. Somehow nobody is making a big deal about it or introducing sanctions on non reputable manufacturers like BMW.

Both the news stories I read about container ship fires, one was sunk and the other was in flames off the coast of the Netherlands both originated from Germany not China. One was going from Germany to Egypt and the other Germany to the US. What type of vehicle started the fire I can't remember but EVs were involved in it getting out of control. I think at least one of the fires was proven to have started from an EV though.

The new salt based sodium-ion batteries which are cheaper and safer can be transported with zero volts I believe so much less likely to cause fires. Mind you how they get them on the container ships is another matter, perhaps discharge them in the container ships before setting off. This seems like a problem that will correct itself with time with better technology batteries.