Son of Segway....

[Straylight]

Well, there is a saying:” necessity is the mother of invention", and maybe the marketing of devices such as the PUMA, however cynical, represents a subtle paradigm shift in the right direction. I don't agree that a primitive lifestyle is the answer, or that such a thing is indeed possible (once a thing has been invented, however destructive it turns out to be, it will remain in perpetuity). I do agree, however, that a certain decommodification of energy is required, and this does mean us using a lot less of it, and finding a much cheaper & cleaner means of producing it.

Try this one out for size: renewable energy capture in the form of electricity generation (of which there is a pretty wide variety of means), coupled with energy storage in the form of hydrogen (produced electrically from water). Admittedly the downfall of this is cost - particularly with the initial infrastructure.

 

[flecc]

Try this one out for size: renewable energy capture in the form of electricity generation (of which there is a pretty wide variety of means), coupled with energy storage in the form of hydrogen (produced electrically from water). Admittedly the downfall of this is cost - particularly with the initial infrastructure.

Often advanced, but impossible regardless of cost. Renewable outputs are relatively small, but the demands for hydrogen production from water are huge. To supply the world's present vehicles with hydrogen would require impossible levels of renewable generation, and the third world simply will not accept exclusion from having our vehicle benefits, or any other benefits for that matter.

All the world's peoples should be able to share equally in it's benefits, but that can only happen sustainably for the long term if there's a lot fewer people than at present. Nuclear power generation would provide a relatively short term answer though.
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[Straylight]

Indeed renewable outputs are relatively small, and indeed the global population should benefit, but I'm talking about where we should go from here.

Scale is key to making renewable energy sources viable, in global terms there are vast regions of uninhabited desert which could be home to vast solar arrays, and I don't mean simply photovoltaic, there is an experimental power plant in Spain that utilises a mirror array to superheat water for use in conventional steam turbines. Wave power, wind power, along with these lucky enough to have access to geothermal energy, such as Iceland - generates 70% of its electricity this way, along with a lot of hot water for domestic use.

The list goes on...

Many of the poorer countries in the world have a lot of sunlight, and this could be the key to the economic re balancing required to raise the standard of living in such places, and encourage a reduction in population.

 

[flecc]

Yes viable for general use, but questionable for hydrogen production since the figures just don't add up.

Many of these renewable sources are hyped up too much and realistically aren't very productive. Covering vast areas of the planet and particularly deserts with energy capturing arrays of any kind can have serious environmental consequences, so it's far from a freebie.

Oh and by the way, something I often have to point out, wave power is wind power with some of its energy lost. They aren't two sources since the wind failing means the waves disappear too. Tidal is another source, but it's mostly fairly unproductive.

I'm not saying don't use renewables, just recognising the limitations.
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[JohnInStockie]

Oh and by the way, something I often have to point out, wave power is wind power with some of its energy lost. They aren't two sources since the wind failing means the waves disappear too. Tidal is another source, but it's mostly fairly unproductive.

I think the whole hydro-generation scene its unproductive due to a lack of investment. If the volumes of cash about to be spent on Nuclear were invested in Hydro, I'm sure 'longer term' renewable energy sources could be in place relatively quickly, and certainly a large number of 'micro-hydro' stations could be up and running very fast indeed.

Tinyscale: e.g. the pressure-wheel (see WildWaterPower Waterwheel for an example), Yes tiny returns, but an environmental impact of almost zero, and easy to fix. Scale these up and float them on watercourses all over the place. No worse than windmills or solar panels, and much cheaper!

Small - medium: Mersey waterwheel

Massive scale: Harness the flow of the gulf stream???

Hydrogen fuels cells are not the answer, its just far too expensive to take fixed hydrogen and 'un-fix' it from what I have read, and the alternatives using Methanol are equally not cost effective.

Fast charge batteries are also a bad idea as if every car on the road used these, then can you imagine the infrastructure needed to 'fueling stations' on a bank holiday weekend to recharge all those batteries in minutes!

Better to pull into a fueling station, and just swap the battery for a full one is a better idea IMO. A standard size, standard connection, high capacity battery technology would be the idea solution.

We need a standard fitting 'swappable battery storage, charging and management system' that can be trickle charged (using renewables), as near as damn it doesnt lose charge over a year, and is cheap to manufacture to an open source design.

Not much to ask for then.

John

 

[rog_london]

putting aside the extra energy input of manufacturing the electronic bits (and I'd be interested in comparisons with something like a MP3 player or laptop or digital camera); the same argument can now also be applied to conventional bicycles particularly the higher end ones due to the decline in Britain's manufacturing industry.

That said, I know that if I did not ride my e-bike to see my friends I would probably end up just doing my CBT and getting a second hand petrol scooter or motorcycle - and two years later eventually a old banger of a car as the bureaucracy for riding motorbikes is now such you might as well just get your full car licence (I've got enough mates who can obtain such vehicles!)

in this case it would certainly be a single male rather selfishly and needlessly adding another vehicle to the pool - I'd be also tempted to start going to raves and festivals miles away and although I'd give lifts to my mates it is still unnecessary travel compared to something like going to work or transporting children around.

All good points! My viewpoint may well be somewhat coloured by my age and where I live - there's not much doubt that travel in London is much easier on public transport than otherwise, and in my case it's free. I'm far happier lugging my toolbag and laptop and other crap on the train to customers' premises in Central London than I am in driving there in the (supplied) company vehicle, which gathers dust and bird droppings in front of the house sometimes for weeks on end.

Presently I'm doing a long-term job for the University of London, and shortly I'll be doing something else for Selfridges which will run for some weeks. Driving in and parking anywhere near there costs an absolute fortune, so I don't do it, even though the company and ultimately the customer would foot that bill.

The e-bike gets taken on the train at weekends so I can avoid the buses when I visit my friends (even e-bikers have SOME friends!). The trip to Warlingham from here is easier by train and e-bike than it is on the motorbike (my other preferred means of transport).

I suppose it's not typical to have a total aversion to driving anything with more than two wheels, but you get like that living here, especially if you've done a hell of a lot of it over the years by way of business. It's not just the congestion charge and punitive parking rates, it's also the fact that often you could walk there quicker....

Rog.

 

[flecc]

Tinyscale: e.g. the pressure-wheel (see WildWaterPower Waterwheel for an example), Yes tiny returns, but an environmental impact of almost zero, and easy to fix. Scale these up and float them on watercourses all over the place. No worse than windmills or solar panels, and much cheaper!

Small - medium: Mersey waterwheel

Massive scale: Harness the flow of the gulf stream???

Hydrogen fuels cells are not the answer, its just far too expensive to take fixed hydrogen and 'un-fix' it from what I have read, and the alternatives using Methanol are equally not cost effective.

Fast charge batteries are also a bad idea as if every car on the road used these, then can you imagine the infrastructure needed to 'fueling stations' on a bank holiday weekend to recharge all those batteries in minutes!

Better to pull into a fueling station, and just swap the battery for a full one is a better idea IMO. A standard size, standard connection, high capacity battery technology would be the idea solution.

We need a standard fitting 'swappable battery storage, charging and management system' that can be trickle charged (using renewables), as near as damn it doesnt lose charge over a year, and is cheap to manufacture to an open source design.

Not much to ask for then.

John

You're absolutely right on fast charge batteries John, that route is sheer madness. To fast charge vehicles if all were electric at the necessary rate would require each country had a whole new national grid of massive proportions, the average filling station with a few cars in requiring many thousands of amps of current delivery. And a home charger for each car would be huge in size to deliver the current flow required. Bonkers.

Yes, standard pre-charged battery units will be a sensible answer just as we have standard petrols, but that has to wait until we've discovered a really satisfactory battery and we are some way off that still.

As you know, I'm not fully in agreement on micro hydro generation since at best it couldn't meet the sheer scale of our needs, though I agree we could use it as a small contribution. Ok in "wet" areas, but much of the world is anything but and even in my part of England we are very dry, no rivers and we sometimes have to wait for a downpour to see our few ponds with some water in them.

In reality we'll probably settle for slow changeover using nuclear generated energy to begin with, then a gradual adoption of hydrogen from nuclear, simply because no-one will take the really big decisions for a real change in course.
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[Straylight]

True, true, institutional change is a grindingly slow process after all, unless the high IQ guys & galls manage to crack nuclear fusion anytime soon Then it would become politically advantageous to rapidly adopt it.

The only real hope for any kind of accelleration in the medium term is for enough people in mainstream society to be talking about their desire for a radical change in energy policy, to make it worth the political franchise of those in a position to effect it.

You never know, perhaps the economic downturn may act as something of a catalyst, with the majority of people seeking cheaper, and so less wasteful means of continuing their lifestyles.

 

[flecc]

You never know, perhaps the economic downturn may act as something of a catalyst, with the majority of people seeking cheaper, and so less wasteful means of continuing their lifestyles.

Mmmmm. Public behaviours following the 1980 and 1991 recessions don't hold out much hope for this. In both cases the consumer society seemed to gain more momentum afterwards with everyone seemingly trying to make up lost ground. Hence China's manufacturing boom.

People's memories seem strangely short. They got themselves in a credit card debt mess before the 1980 recession and then lost homes etc as a result, but then went on to do exactly the same over the next 11 years to end up in a post 1991 mess.

And now they've done it again, third time unlucky, a recession meaning many already can't cope with their huge card debts and mortgages and are losing their homes.

It'd be a brave man who bets on the behaviour changing this time.
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[Straylight]

Yes, but what may make the difference this time is a massively increased awareness of our environmental impact, coupled with the fact that the gods of free market capitalism are widely held as being the cause of the problem, rather than the cure. People are looking much closer to home for redemtion, and so with any luck will set their egos aside long enough to examine their own motives.

Add to this what was mentioned earlier about children being conditioned, in the way that we never were, to see themselves as being involved in the planet's ecosystem and not somehow above it , and we have hope. Not that I'm saying sit back and leave it to the next generation, as this would be foolish, and sadly historicaly repetative.

 

[JohnInStockie]

In reality we'll probably settle for slow changeover using nuclear generated energy to begin with, then a gradual adoption of hydrogen from nuclear, simply because no-one will take the really big decisions for a real change in course.
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I think youre right as I cant see any enthusiasm from either the energy companies or government to try anything else other than nuclear. The token gestures to varied renewable sources havent been given the investment they would need to be significant.

Which means that we are putting our eggs in a nuclear solution, a non-distributed centralised power system, with energy distributed over a grid. That will have the effect of requiring cars to their own energy source as the grid couldnt trasfer the energy required for fast charge, and therefore the petrol (or maybe methanol) engine is here until we have enough nuclear power stations to mass produce hydrogen.

Doesnt seem a sensible course of action to me.

John

 

[Alex728]

I think one big issue is compared to other EU nations (many with similar climates) we lost 20 years of potential progress with renewables due to the privatisation of the electricity companies. I remember loads of eco-projects in the 1980s when at school (the Electricity Boards even mentioned the environment back then) - but post privatisation they were viewed as "non-core" business activities and shelved until very recently when they became "good PR" to attempt.

Of course nuclear was an option too but ironically I got the impression the escalating Cold War in the 1980s meant that it wasn't as popular for obvious reasons (as well as the aftermath of Chernobyl).

and in the meantime power demand per house has spiralled - it was common to have a 60A service fuse and incomer on most older houses - now 100A is the standard...

I am confident that in the UK we are less likely to have "Homer Simpson" type accidents even with more nuclear power stations; but when (not if) the Middle Eastern (or any other not 100% "friendly" nations) try to move towards nuclear power (even for peaceful purposes) things could get very "interesting".

 

[flecc]

and in the meantime power demand per house has spiralled - it was common to have a 60A service fuse and incomer on most older houses - now 100A is the standard...

This highlights just how "green" we used to be in our typical family, just like most of the country. Back in the 1940s in our typical house, 40 or 60 watt watt bulbs were commonplace and a 100 watt bulb was thought extravagant. Some homes even bought bulbs rated in candlepowers and lived in gloom. Typically we'd only be using one living room with the customary one light per room, and when anyone left a room with no-one else in it, the light would always be switched out, that drummed in from an early age. We only had one plug in device, a "wireless" that was hardly ever on for more than an hour a day, usually less.

No 'fridge, freezer, vacuum cleaner, washing machine or electric iron, so our electricity consumption must have been miniscule.

No car of course, my father, brother and I cycled or walked everywhere, my mother and sister walked or very rarely caught a bus. We grew our own vegetables and some fruits on bushes, and had chickens, usually about a dozen, for eggs and for meat when one ceased to lay.

But would I go back to living like that? No way, and that's the trouble, hardly anyone else will either.
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[Alex728]

No car of course, my father, brother and I cycled or walked everywhere, my mother and sister walked or very rarely caught a bus. We grew our own vegetables and some fruits on bushes, and had chickens, usually about a dozen, for eggs and for meat when one ceased to lay.

But would I go back to living like that? No way, and that's the trouble, hardly anyone else will either.
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TBH the "green-ness" of previous years was much more to do with cost, availability and post-war austerity than any kind of concious attempt to change lifestyles - in fact this sort of wiring setup was still commonplace in Malaysia (where my parents are from) until the 1980s/1990s...

but much depends on location. I don't expect people to immediately give up all the gadgets nor for city people to "go back to the land" (although some with larger gardens are trying!) but my friends in Mid Suffolk still live a rural lifestyle - to the point they are planting fruit and veg in the garden, and their chickens are bold enough to steal the dried food from the cats and the dog!

but people are getting nasty surprises as the power distribution network hasn't grown much since the 1950s and much of the old equipment is still there and reaching end of life. A common problem in some family houses is for one person to turn on the electric shower, another the kettle and the next the toaster or grill - and pop goes the service fuse!

At work (in a Mid Suffolk village) the UPS has been a great boon as power cuts have been more common this winter - only a few minutes to an hour in some occasions but enough to play havoc with computers and telecoms kit had there not been a UPS...

 

[flecc]

the "green-ness" of previous years was much more to do with cost, availability and post-war austerity than any kind of concious attempt to change lifestyles -

Yes of course, in the 1940s "green" didn't exist as we understand it now and there was no conscious effort to change lifestyles, or any known reason to.

A common problem in some family houses is for one person to turn on the electric shower, another the kettle and the next the toaster or grill - and pop goes the service fuse!

At work (in a Mid Suffolk village) the UPS has been a great boon as power cuts have been more common this winter - only a few minutes to an hour in some occasions but enough to play havoc with computers and telecoms kit had there not been a UPS...

Yes, I've even got some limitations in my late 1960s property, but fortunately only one power cut this winter.
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