Shouldn't the current E4 road show be targeted at customers not dealers

Wisper Bikes · Feb 23, 2012

muckymits said:
The LBS need your help to push and educate Joe public. There is very little interest in Durham, most of the bikes dont look like 'real bikes' so wont stand the hammer of the tracks and the better bikes are too expensive is all we get, or I thought those were against the law.

Help us guys get the message over.

Hi Muckymits, Both E4 and BEBA would love to get involved, this is exactly what we are planning to do this summer. Joe public needs to understand why it is important to invest in a decent bike with great back up and why although such bikes aren't cheap, they represent great value for money. For instance the cost for running a comprehensive service department with full time staff, offices, spare parts stock and warehouse costs well over £50.00 per bike. Also most decent electric bike suppliers will offer £50.00 off a new battery when the old one is returned for environmental disposal. There are of course many other reasons that investing in a good electric bike supported by a solid firm is beneficial, and you can take it from me it has nothing to do with electric bike company owners getting rich!!

If I can be of any assistance in helping in the North East please drop me a PM.

All the best

David

Wisper Bikes · Feb 23, 2012

Thanks for your interesting comments Dave (Kudos),

We all run our businesses in different ways e.g. some of us blatantly use the forum to sell our bikes! There is nothing wrong with selling cheaper electric bikes. Indeed I belive they are very important for the market. I am particularly in favour as cheaper bikes help introduce the concept and get people onto electric biking in the first place. When a rider who has joined the market with an entry level bike is ready to buy their second electric bicycle, they are often ready to invest in a more refined or better built machine.

As Mark says E4 is completely different and separate to BEBA. E4 is a sales lead group whereas BEBA 1. Works for the industry and 2. Accredits good suppliers who are prepared to sign up to and demonstrate continued adherence to a rather tough code of practice. We at BEBA do a lot of work behind the scenes, we are currently involved at parliamentary level in sorting out the DfT issues with riding European standard bikes in the UK. This is something that will help everyone in the electric bike industry including Kudos. We are also working to resolve problems that will seriously effect every stake holder in the industry with respect to transporting lithium batteries.

We wouldn't dream of knocking any business that does not want to help the industry by supporting the work we do at BEBA and as Mark says you would be very welcome to apply for membership.

Best regards

David

indalo · Feb 23, 2012

Come on Elderfield, pay your dues and help the whole industry and customer base fight for the best deal for ebikes and accompanying legislation.

You'll gain loads of respect and probably lots more customers through your door if forum members and readers can feel assured that you will provide the kind of dedicated support offered by the likes of Juicybikes and Wisper, among others. I'm sure I'm not alone in having reservations about ebike retailers who choose not to subscribe to the BEBA protocols. If a seller is not prepared to attach business to BEBA, then I for one won't be buying any bikes from that seller.

Perhaps, of course, you already provide the great back-up of which I speak? If you do, then I cannot see any reason why you cannot accept the terms required of BEBA members.

So come on Dave; you've made some inroads into the market with your range of budget-priced bikes. If you're going to add one or two more expensive lines, then you really ought to be part of BEBA.

Indalo

ps If you have recently joined BEBA, please ignore my exhortation.

Oxygen Bicycles · Feb 23, 2012

There have been a few companies interested to join BEBA or even joined but soon it came to pay the membership they were gone and quiet :-(

Wisper Bikes · Feb 23, 2012

Thanks Indalo, I think Dave would be great as a member, we need as many good people as possible to help with the work if we truly want to progress the market. It will involve a few hundred pounds and some work for the common good but, (obviously), I am positive it's a worth while cause.

You are absolutely right Andrew from Oxygen (full BEBA member) loads of interest until £400.00 is mentioned! (£400.00 importers and manufacturers £180.00 retailers)

Despite the fee we have now reached critical mass and have more than 20 members including retailers, full members and associates. BEBA is no doubt great for the industry.

Should I be surprised that some firms are happy to sit back and reap the benefits without putting anything into the pot? Maybe not! Maybe it's the money however it could also be that the code of practice is a little too tough for some.

The fact is that we need as many members as possible to help share the burden and to give the electric bicycle industry a strong clear voice in the UK. BEBA is all inclusive and would welcome applications from all within the industry. Anyone who is considering becoming a member would be most welcome, we need your help to grow the UK market!

All the best

David

flecc · Feb 23, 2012

Wisper Bikes said:
Maybe it's the money however it could also be that the code of practice is a little too tough for some.

The money is likely to be an element at this end of a winter, so perhaps recruitment is best done in the latter half of a good summer when feelings are more positive. Of course that's when the members are too busy to spend time recruiting, life's perversities again.

Those who find the code of practice too tough will eventually find the market is also too tough to survive.

hairybiker · Feb 23, 2012

Wisper Bikes said:
We are also working to resolve problems that will seriously effect every stake holder in the industry with respect to transporting lithium batteries.

I found there already is a problem in transporting lithium batteries, but most of you seem to think its ok to just ignore this law or go round it.

Wisper Bikes · Feb 23, 2012

Hi Hairybiker

The problem is I don't think that many are aware of the implications if they choose to ignore or flout this issue.

BEBA have employed an expert in the field of transporting dangerous goods as a consultant to the association, his report is available to members.

All the best

David

hairybiker · Feb 24, 2012

Wisper Bikes said:
BEBA have employed an expert in the field of transporting dangerous goods as a consultant to the association, his report is available to members.

Hi David

this is all good and well but how will it help people that are not in your exclusive club (BEBA)

indalo · Feb 24, 2012

Kudoscycles said:
Indalo>perhaps now you realise why KudosCycles does not wish to join BEBA.

Thank you Dave for your explanation. You very neatly ignored the major plank of BEBA's raison d'être and I cannot really understand why you imagine that dispute resolution would be or could be detrimental. That situation is of the very last resort so with decent customer service from you, you are never likely to find yourself in that position.

I cannot imagine for a moment how BEBA accreditation might impinge on your ability to do what you want in terms of what you sell, what you charge and how you market your products but I'm no expert in such matters.

It would be nice to have you involved but it's your business and you know best.

Indalo

Hero Eco · Feb 24, 2012

hairybiker said:
Hi David

this is all good and well but how will it help people that are not in your exclusive club (BEBA)

Hi Hairybiker,

This is one of the benefits of being a member. It we were to release this to all then what is the benefit of being a member?

BEBA isn't exclusive, its open to all who can and want to meet the criteria

Thanks
Mark

JuicyBike · Feb 24, 2012

It is a real benefit being a member of BEBA. At the last meeting in January I learned a heck of a lot about the legal issues and responsibilities for transporting batteries around the country and globe - a minefield, very serious for any business, and of course life-threatening for the public involved (imagine the consequences of a badly handled box of 20 LiPos rolling around the wet floor of a passenger ferry...). The fine alone for non-conformance would put a massive dent in the bottom line of any business, and that's before any accident occurs.

We spoke about many things less nightmarish...

Not least the possibility of opening up BEBA to individual membership. But that's my agenda with BEBA and hopefully all BEBA members are considering the benefits of encouraging "bike-owner" membership, which I feel would really open up the organisation and create an authoritative and more powerful lobby.

The work done by BEBA has relied upon the commitment of a few very talented, determined, hard-working and extremely trustworthy individuals, who have my wholehearted support. It's for me to convince BEBA colleagues of the value of extending membership to achieve the "Club with Clout" that I can see the organisation becoming and offer my help in achieving that.

BEBA is about promoting the "Electric Bike" brand, and not any individual business. I can see the value of my business participating in that.

Wisper Bikes · Feb 24, 2012

hairybiker said:
Hi David

this is all good and well but how will it help people that are not in your exclusive club (BEBA)

Hi Hairy Biker, thanks for your comment it is a fair point.

BEBA is not at all exclusive, anyone is welcome to join as long as they are prepared to help with financing the organisation and are prepared to adhere to the code of practice. To employ a consultant is not a cheap undertaking. Having the report is one of the many benefits of becoming a BEBA member along with cheaper stands at some events. If no body had invested in the industry association we would not have had the cash to have the report written. BEBA membership costs less than half the cost of the report and anual consultancy, great value for money for anyone wishing to join.

All the best

David

Hero Eco · Feb 24, 2012

Kudoscycles said:
Indalo>I thought I explained clearly how BEBA is restricting the choices that I and many other dealers have to selling our products....please read carefully the first line of their code of practice,quote'only sell through dealers not direct sell over the internet'....my current Kudos range,which by the way I do not consider budget,£500 e-bikes are budget,I have chosen to sell through dealers but I will be selling BH-Emotion product from Spain direct over the internet,I have a cheaper bike in build to compete with the likes of Cyclamatic,that will be a direct sell bike as well otherwise it is impossible to be competitive.
Why do BEBA want to restrict sales in this way because lets be brutally blunt they are protecting their market position-if the direct selling route became the norm all these high cost bikes would have to be 30% cheaper to look even reasonable value. At the moment the market is finely balanced between internet sales and dealer sales-the dealers are not doing themselves any favours by not holding stock because the 'try and buy' facility is just not possible.
If BEBA manage to get a national e-bike show off the ground,which with respect to them I also have experienced the difficulties of achieving,will they restrict entry to BEBA members only?
Indalo you have no idea of how much protectionism there is in this e-bike market.....E4 was restricted to high priced product only because they don't want the competition....I have been excluded from a National Motorhome show just because other e-bike sellers don't want me there-too competitive,will upset the other e-bike sellers!!!!.....the welsh show was restricted to entries that the organisers felt would not be too competitive with their own product. I welcome the Cyclamatics,the Wooshes as much as the Storck Raddar and the Kalkhoffs,the Juicy Bikes and the KudosCycles for I think the customers should have every opportunity to try all price levels and BEBA is trying to restrict that choice.
Kudos will soon have every level of product at every price level available to test on our private test area,on a 'try and buy' deal....there should be similar facilities available elsewhere in the UK,perhaps other dealers will realise the advantages of stocking every product they sell.
Dave
KudosCycles

Hi Dave

I think you are missing the point about selling online. Let me explain further:

1) It is to restrict businesses that just want to sell some bikes then disappear, leaving consumers stuck with no warranty etc. If you have a store that you sell from, then there is an address that a consumer can return a bike to. If you wish to have a store, sell online and sell to dealers then that also fits with the code of conduct
2) If it made sense to, we would all take 30% off our bikes and sell direct, but there is are a number of very good reasons we don't:
i) If one of our customers has a problem with a bike, we want them to be able to return it to a local, trained specialist who can fix it and get them on their way. They can also have it serviced there. Its all well and good having it shipped to a central depot, but shipping a bike is expensive (even more so with recent legislation), there is the risk of damage and loss whilst in shipment and also the huge inconvenience of getting it packaged, having it collected and then hanging around waiting for the courier to return it
3) There is no other motorised vehicle category that sell exclusively online, with no dealers. I think thats a hint in itself.
4) Your need retailers! They push your products, take them to shows, sell your brand etc. You would never get the same coverage if selling direct
5) I understand why you sell direct with parts, and it makes sense, but in my opinion, and its only my opinion, not with vehicles

Furthermore you criticise dealers for not taking stock, if I were a dealer I wouldn't take stock if the manufacturer was competing with me and selling direct too.

BEBA also doesn't restrict to the more expensive bikes, Powacycle are a member of ours and offer some great entry level pricing, as David eluded to earlier in an post, entry level bikes are critical.

We would love to get a national event organised to represent all BEBA members, but need more members to make it happen. I must admit it does frustrate me at times, we have all put so much effort, time and money in and some are quick to criticise when all our motivations are of good intent for the industry.

Thanks
Mark

hairybiker · Feb 24, 2012

thanks Dave (wisper)
you have missed the point I am one guy with a bike like most people on this forum.I thought that the idea of a forum was to talk about a shared interest and help each other, you say you have information about batteries but wont share it if I don't join your club. that is not fair, I can not join because I am just one guy.

Wisper Bikes · Feb 24, 2012

Hi Dave,

You would be a great asset to BEBA, and I cannot see any reason that we would not welcome you. As Mark quite rightly says you do sell through dealers so why would that be a problem? Mark also nicely explains the reason the more successful electric bike companies sell through retailers it is to offer the customer more choice and better service locally not less.

Here is the code of practice in full for anyone that has not seen it.

Key Members must agree to and be able to demonstrate that they:

1.Only make sales through dealers / retailers or directly to the end user through flagship stores and not exclusively online

2. Manufacture or have the UK exclusive agency to a brand of electric bicycle

3. Have an after sales support program available to all dealers

4. Hold a full spare parts inventory to enable on-going support for product in the market

5. Not manufacture / distribute electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas

6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements

7. Offer full technical training to retail outlets

8. Provide retailers with marketing materials

9. Provide retailers with manuals for all bikes

10. Provide full service literature

11. Offer an effective complaints procedure to the end user

BEBA Retail members may use the BEBA Retailer logo and will be listed on the BEBA web site as BEBA approved retailers. Retail members should:

1. Stock at least one brand of electric bike from a Key or Associate member of BEBA

2. Be technically capable and have the facilities to maintain any electric bicycle they retail

3. Hold or have immediate access to a full spare parts inventory to enable on-going support for product in the market

4. Commit to having at least one BEBA Key members electric bike in store for demo at all times

5. Not retail electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas

6. Agree to PDI all electric bikes

7. Be prepared to co operate with BEBA in resolving any customer dispute bought to the attention of the BEBA board

Only what any decent company would do anyway?

With regards to the clause 7 for retailers why would this be a problem? This is aimed at companies who will not resolve customer's problems. You obviously do, so this would not be an issue for you.

I understand your point regarding copying, and yes we are flattered. However we seriously want to discourage copying other businesses ideas. Copying in any industry stifles improvement and inovation. Why would any business spend their hard earned cash on new design, research and development if all they had to do was wait and copy other peoples hard work?

Regarding dealers holding stocks, like Mark and other BEBA members we don't have a problem with this at Wisper. Indeed one dealer has over 200 bikes in his warehouse already this year they are not all Wispers unfortunately but the vast majority of them are from BEBA members. We at Wisper have this week delivered 18 bikes to a dealer in the north for the new season, I consider that to be commitment. As Mark quite rightly says this is probably because we do not compete directly with our dealers and respect them as a professional and integral part of the electric bike industry.

I do hope this puts your mind at rest, as I said earlier we would welcome your application (and your cash!

).

Come on Dave, lets get our heads together and work as a team!

All the best

David

Hero Eco · Feb 24, 2012

Hi all;

This thread has now moved onto BEBA rather than E4. If anyone wishes to continue the discussions about BEBA may I suggest we move it to a new thread.

Many thanks
Mark

Shouldn't the current E4 road show be targeted at customers not dealers

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