should ktm bikes sell sclass bikes without proof of private land.
- Thread starter soundwave
- Start date
Just an observation... They sell thousands of petrol powered off road Motor Bikes of which a good number are used illegally without proof of private land. When these illegal riders are stopped by the police only the riders are prosecuted not the retailer or the manufacturer. However I believe that the electric version of these bikes cannot be bought unless you can prove private land. Mixed messages?
You may have put your finger on something...
Just go and read the websites of "respectable" French and German e-bike sellers, they are all offering throttles. You can't use one almost everywhere but that isn't stopping companies from making money. Same thing with kits for 50 cc mopeds, exhaust kits that are too noisy "for track use only", tuning kits to give enough power to be well over twice the legal speed limit. Businesses have to make money, ethics are something you learn about in philosophy class, not a real world thing.
I have said before that I once owned a 125 cc KTM Sting (or Duke depending) and had the limiter taken off after running it in. A legal 15 hp docile 125 became a fire breathing 34 hp illegal monster that scared the pants off any 4 stroke under about 600 cc at the lights. Lovely machine with excellent components (WP fork, Brembo brakes...), not very comfortable but capable of 150 km/h cruising speed (also known as WOT...). If I do decide to go for a moped s-pedelec, if and when the law allows a decent helmet you can pedal with on head, KTM will be on my short list.
Col you seem to have ethics getting in the way, get over it, making money at whatever cost is what capitalism is all about, sell them s-pedelecs with a private land clause to wash your hands of responsibility that is what they want.
Just go and read the websites of "respectable" French and German e-bike sellers, they are all offering throttles. You can't use one almost everywhere but that isn't stopping companies from making money. Same thing with kits for 50 cc mopeds, exhaust kits that are too noisy "for track use only", tuning kits to give enough power to be well over twice the legal speed limit. Businesses have to make money, ethics are something you learn about in philosophy class, not a real world thing.
I have said before that I once owned a 125 cc KTM Sting (or Duke depending) and had the limiter taken off after running it in. A legal 15 hp docile 125 became a fire breathing 34 hp illegal monster that scared the pants off any 4 stroke under about 600 cc at the lights. Lovely machine with excellent components (WP fork, Brembo brakes...), not very comfortable but capable of 150 km/h cruising speed (also known as WOT...). If I do decide to go for a moped s-pedelec, if and when the law allows a decent helmet you can pedal with on head, KTM will be on my short list.
Col you seem to have ethics getting in the way, get over it, making money at whatever cost is what capitalism is all about, sell them s-pedelecs with a private land clause to wash your hands of responsibility that is what they want.
I speak with our motorbike dealers regularly about this... because yes in the eyes of the law, there is no difference between the sPedelecs and the motorbikes (on and offroad ones) they sell.
However they and I have identified two important differences, and these aren't really with the product, they are with the customers.
1) their motorbike customers aren't generally "........." enough to buy a motorbike and expect to get away with riding it on the road without tax, insurance etc etc. If they sell one of the type approved electric ones, they make sure the customer has registered it, they don't just hope they will.
2) motorbike customers won't / can't take their enduro / MX bike offroad into the woods / bridleways / trail centres etc etc. They buy them and use them for what they are designed for, which is racing or riding at dedicated events and centres.
The problem I have is that if we sell an sPedelec I know that
the end customer will either take a risk and use it on the roads, which I think puts our dealers at risk because they and I know this for a fact. There is no way someone is buying an sPedelec for any other purpose.
Or they will use it a trail centres or other mtb venures around the UK, and this has such a long list of potential problems to me as a mountainbiker that I can't bring myself to say... sod it, lets sell sPedelecs.
We're not that desperate for a quick buck that we'd risk so much.
However they and I have identified two important differences, and these aren't really with the product, they are with the customers.
1) their motorbike customers aren't generally "........." enough to buy a motorbike and expect to get away with riding it on the road without tax, insurance etc etc. If they sell one of the type approved electric ones, they make sure the customer has registered it, they don't just hope they will.
2) motorbike customers won't / can't take their enduro / MX bike offroad into the woods / bridleways / trail centres etc etc. They buy them and use them for what they are designed for, which is racing or riding at dedicated events and centres.
The problem I have is that if we sell an sPedelec I know that
the end customer will either take a risk and use it on the roads, which I think puts our dealers at risk because they and I know this for a fact. There is no way someone is buying an sPedelec for any other purpose.
Or they will use it a trail centres or other mtb venures around the UK, and this has such a long list of potential problems to me as a mountainbiker that I can't bring myself to say... sod it, lets sell sPedelecs.
We're not that desperate for a quick buck that we'd risk so much.
Not really a mixed message since there is a crucial difference.
Motor vehicles require the driver to be tested for competence and a driving licence held.
There is no such equivalent for pedelecs and the S-pedelecs create a confusing crossover situation, having moped like performance but no licencing requirement.
The real answers would be either to test and licence S pedelec riders or ban S-pedelecs outright. Either of these would be equitable.
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I couldn't really care less whether they sell them or not..... but i do get fed up of hearing how some sellers try to tell other sellers what they should or shouldn't be selling.
We don't sell to the public, so yes we can tell our retailers what they can and can't sell.
We can and will also continue to push for best practice within the industry as it benefits everyone.
We can and will also continue to push for best practice within the industry as it benefits everyone.
KTM;-
Quote -
''2) motorbike customers won't / can't take their enduro / MX bike offroad into the woods / bridleways / trail centres etc etc. They buy them and use them for what they are designed for, which is racing or riding at dedicated events and centres''.
You are joking , aren't you ???
The anti social use of MOTORCYCLES, designed for of road use only, and yes the odd KTM, is increasing nationwide...In the countryside and around estates...Yesterday was nearly wiped out by two lads on a dual carriageway - two up no helmets.
I live near a great expanse of moorland criss crossed by footpaths.
Vans arrive at the weekends and off load MX/ENDURO bikes - no reg plates etc who then cause mayhem.
So I don't think your statement holds water
Quote -
''2) motorbike customers won't / can't take their enduro / MX bike offroad into the woods / bridleways / trail centres etc etc. They buy them and use them for what they are designed for, which is racing or riding at dedicated events and centres''.
You are joking , aren't you ???
The anti social use of MOTORCYCLES, designed for of road use only, and yes the odd KTM, is increasing nationwide...In the countryside and around estates...Yesterday was nearly wiped out by two lads on a dual carriageway - two up no helmets.
I live near a great expanse of moorland criss crossed by footpaths.
Vans arrive at the weekends and off load MX/ENDURO bikes - no reg plates etc who then cause mayhem.
So I don't think your statement holds water
well, anyone can buy any vehicle (other than armed battle tanks) without proof of private land or a driving licence.
Tell that to the uninsured, unlicensed and underage kids tearing around our local woods and common on their mini trail bikes. All illegal of course and Plod never in evidence.
If we look at the long term implications, I agree with KTM's stance on this.
Many people enjoy "Green Lane" riding on their motorbikes. This is essentially what most people wrongly term as off roading. It's nothing of the sort, the trails they ride on are actually classified as roads, but they fall into disuse by traffic and resemble a bridleway. However they are still roads like any other highway. As long as the motorbike or vehicle complies with the law, tax, mot, insurance, helmet, licensed rider etc, it perfectly legal to ride on them and many people get a lot of enjoyment from this activity.
Introduce the chav with his non type approved motocross bike, uninsured, macho noisy exhaust etc, riding at hideous speeds on the same Green Lanes as legal riders. Net result, Green Lanes are rapidly being de-classified from road / highway status and the legal boys and girls lose their enjoyable Sunday afternoon.
I can see the same happening at trail centres (banning EBikes) when Mr Chavtastic becomes a prevalent nuisance on his garden shed special or illegal Spedelec.
Good on KTM for having the foresight to anticipate this and for taking a moral stance.
I really don't know what all the SPedelec fuss is about. A good quality standard Ebike is perfectly adequate.
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True here to, but that doesn't alter the legal mixed message I commented on.Tell that to the uninsured, unlicensed and underage kids tearing around our local woods and common on their mini trail bikes. All illegal of course and Plod never in evidence.
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Weird isn't it. I can't understand anyone wanting to own and drive something other than say a Suzuki Alto
I'm not sure that we are talking about the same thing.Weird isn't it. I can't understand anyone wanting to own and drive something other than say a Suzuki Alto
It's legal to use a Suzuki Alto on a road, it's legal to use a pedelec on a road. It's legal to use something faster than a Suzuki Alto on a road but it's not legal to use something faster than a pedelec, say an S Pedelec on a road.
Frustrating for some, but that's the way it is. I'm not sure an S Prdelec would get you to your destination much quicker than a standard one anyway. Hence my puzzlement at all the fuss.
Yes I do understand that you're unable to comprehend why people view things differently than you.
I'm just stating the facts. I know you don't like them and would prefer something different. But what we do have in our current pedelec legislation isn't bad. Let's not spoil it everyone.
Sucked me in there, for a minute I actually thought you were trying to understand.
Interesting thought there, if they're not much quicker it makes you wonder what all the opposition and fuss is all about.
Oh and perhaps in future you should stick to the "They're not legal" then I won't get confused into thinking you're actually trying to understand why someone might ride such a bicycle.
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