Should it be legal....?

[indalo]

Just spotted one of Banbury Frank's illegal ebikes on eBay which got me thinking: Given the law, as I understand it, relating to ebikes in the UK, particularly with regard to motor power, surely peddling, (as opposed to pedalling!) such obviously illegal machines ought to be in breach of the law?

I'm asking that as a question because, as things stand, I suspect it isn't illegal to actually promote such products. Now, I well understand that the power level is switchable so the machine may be ridden in "legal" mode but I can't get my head round the fact that the motor is clearly outside any legal parameters contained in the regulations.

It occurs to me that people requiring the sort of power produced by electrical systems such as the one advertised, really ought to be looking at a different form of transport. When I read the blurb on Frank's ad, the bits in green type seemed to be there to entice the speed freaks yet those parts were also the bits which displayed, to me, a complete distain for the regulations.

I have no difficulty at all if legislation should provide, in the future, for more powerful ebikes in this country. If a separate class is created, perhaps requiring legislation similar to that applicable to motor cycles, fine. My gripe is that, as things stand, people are creating illegal ebikes, some bragging about it in this forum.....and it seems, breaking the law with impunity. That can't be right.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Bike-Xipi-comuter-L-1-500-watt-NEW-2012-15AH-Battery-/170757612392?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item27c1f26368#ht_2783wt_1114

Indalo

 

[flecc]

We've always tended to have this stance in English law, almost anything can be sold including cannabis plant seeds, the onus of legal usage being on the purchaser. Thus there are two gun shops within easy reach of me, heavily stocked with all manner of weapons, and we know from today's shocking news the possible outcomes.

Of course with most guns, various kinds of user licencing are in place and the regulations have hardened in recent years, but with e-bikes having no licencing, it's a free for all where sales are concerned.

 

[10mph]

I agree, Indalo.

Just spotted one of Banbury Frank's illegal ebikes on eBay which got me thinking: Given the law, as I understand it, relating to ebikes in the UK, particularly with regard to motor power, surely peddling, (as opposed to pedalling!) such obviously illegal machines ought to be in breach of the law?

I notice he says the motor is labelled 250 watts. Is this to give the impression that the bike, when restricted to 15mph max, is legal in that the motor is rated for 250 watts as per the regulations for pedelecs? If so, is the power actually limited to 250 watt average when running at 15 mph, or if you have a very long 10% steep hill and are 20 stone is an illegal 1kw+ available to take you up at a legal 15mph?

If this 250 watt rating claim is not just designed to obfuscate the legal position, but is real, then I wonder how long the motor lasts at 1.5Kw.

 

[wurly]

I don't know why you seem to take such a vocal stance on this. How you NOT know that people won't seek to make there ebikes legal. As regard bragging about building Ebikes. I thought this forum was an ebike community where all aspects of buying and biulding ebikes could be discussed. I don't see my biuld as bragging, i purposely posted the thread to seek advice from an engineering purpose. I also try to make it as light hearted as possible showing my errors (for amusment as well). It's hardly bragging.

If people do not want to see what i am biulding ...send me a pm and i'll judge the response. I'll let Frank respond to your critisms himself.

 

[morphix]

Just spotted one of Banbury Frank's illegal ebikes on eBay which got me thinking: Given the law, as I understand it, relating to ebikes in the UK, particularly with regard to motor power, surely peddling, (as opposed to pedalling!) such obviously illegal machines ought to be in breach of the law?

I'm asking that as a question because, as things stand, I suspect it isn't illegal to actually promote such products. Now, I well understand that the power level is switchable so the machine may be ridden in "legal" mode but I can't get my head round the fact that the motor is clearly outside any legal parameters contained in the regulations.

It occurs to me that people requiring the sort of power produced by electrical systems such as the one advertised, really ought to be looking at a different form of transport. When I read the blurb on Frank's ad, the bits in green type seemed to be there to entice the speed freaks yet those parts were also the bits which displayed, to me, a complete distain for the regulations.

I have no difficulty at all if legislation should provide, in the future, for more powerful ebikes in this country. If a separate class is created, perhaps requiring legislation similar to that applicable to motor cycles, fine. My gripe is that, as things stand, people are creating illegal ebikes, some bragging about it in this forum.....and it seems, breaking the law with impunity. That can't be right.

Electric Bike Xipi comuter L 1,500 watt NEW FOR 2012 15AH Battery | eBay

Indalo

Good topic Indalo. My understanding is (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that a bike that spec'd outside the legal restrictions isn't illegal to sell or own. Someone might be using it on private property, although it's most likely they intend to use it on the road of course.

I don't think you can (or should) ban the sale of such bikes by making it an offense to sell them, but I do think sellers have a responsibility (and legal duty) to ensure that buyers are fully aware the bike is not road legal and is strictly off-road. Perhaps some standard disclaimer notice should be used across the industry stating its a not intended as an unlicensed road vehicle and its a criminal offense to use as such.

As you mentioned, bikes can be restricted for use on roads with a "off-road switch". The question is whether people can use that responsibly and whether the law should make it mandatory bikes outside the spec have it fitted? If you had such a switch I think it would be better to make it not easily accessible, i.e. something that requires re-wiring perhaps or reconfig of the controller. Then you have a bike which is clearly in one of two states, either a road legal bike within spec, or a bike out of spec for off-road dirt tracking or whatever.

It's surprising (looking at YouTube) how many people seem ignorant of the law on e-bikes and think "anything goes". I saw a blog today where someone was converting a 20" folder with what looked like a 1000W 72V kit and there's videos on YouTube of bikes with the same kit fitted traveling at speeds over 40 and up to 56mph on the roads.

 

[banbury frank]

We Have had this discussion many times before After that I added this to my adds


In De restricted mode 28 MPH used on a public road this bike is now a motor vechicle and needs to be registerd and taxed insured and you need to ware a crash helmet also the appropriate licence It is now an electric moped

That is Blunt as we can make it

But it is still a free country



Frank

 

[flecc]

I thought this forum was an ebike community where all aspects of buying and biulding ebikes could be discussed.

Yes, about e-bikes.

Not about overpowered or excess assist speed machines which are in fact legally motorcycles.

 

[morphix]

Yes, about e-bikes.

Not about overpowered or excess assist speed machines which are in fact legally motorcycles.

You could take the argument or view that selling bikes which clearly fall out of the spec is unethnical business practice. Because these bikes put the owners, other motorists and pedestrians potentially at risk. Even if you put a disclaimer, why sell bikes you KNOW fall foul of the law? Note: Not directed at Frank this post, just saying that's one way of looking at it.

 

[Scottyf]

The ratings on the motor are a crock of **** anyway. The way most electrical systems work they all use over the rated amount.

If they didn't everyone here with a legal spec 250w would be moaning there all useless and don't provide enough help up hills.
Speed is the main issue and the type of riding. 15mph in a busy area is dangerous. 15mph on the road is quite slow.

In anycase I want to be able to choose what I buy. I don't want any more help from people telling menwhat I should or should not buy because they've said so.

Fact is I'd rather have those people using something over the limit and be sensible and use the bike for its purpose than another car driver blocking up the roads.

I'm with flecc on being allowed to buy what I like. Then it can be up to me what I do with it.

I don't know why people want more legislation and less freedom.

 

[morphix]

Scottyf: I hear what you're saying and in an ideal world where people could be trusted to act responsibly it would be fine to take a relaxed approach. Sometimes legislation is needed though to ENSURE our rights. For example, if we legislated to restrict the sale of e-bikes in some way to reduce high powered ones on roads, surely that is a better compromise than doing nothing and suddenly some nasty accidents happen and the gov does a typical knee-jerk reaction policy and outlaws all e-bikes or introduces some licensing and costs go up.

It's like the old handguns thing. Until fairly recently people have legally had handguns, pistols etc in UK licensed by the police. A few gang shootings with black-market handguns, a public outcry and knee-jerk reaction from gov and all hand guns are now banned. Despite the fact there were very few problems with the many thousands of legal registered handgun owners who belonged to shooting clubs etc. Even the British Olympic pistol target team can't even practice in UK now.

 

[morphix]

Does anyone know anyway how much it would cost and how practical it is to take a high powered e-bike and get it road registered? Even setting aside the CBT and getting a license and insurance etc. It seems that is what owners should be doing but they want to ignore it and just by-pass the law.

 

[Scottyf]

In the grand scheme of things cyclists of all natures don't cause that many accidents anyway. Let alone ebikes.
As long as your not making a 50mph downhill beast to run round the city on you'd be ok.

Why also would they be bothered when the cycling community is so small. And the ebike community even smaller. There are more better things to pool resourse to.
I don't know why this issue bothers a few of you.

I could quite easily take a 250w motor and over volt it a bit. No one would be none the wiser.
I also think the majority of ebike riders are not idiots. We don't have that Market. Most people are not 14 to 20 causing accidents.

Most are keen cyclists or people who want to commute using something other than public transport. Or people who suffer from illness or disability who still want to excercise. The demographic just isn't there.

We the users should be allowed to forge our own reponsibilities and not be thought as mindless idiots that need our hands holding on every issue.

 

[flecc]

Does anyone know anyway how much it would cost and how practical it is to take a high powered e-bike and get it road registered? Even setting aside the CBT and getting a license and insurance etc. It seems that is what owners should be doing but they want to ignore it and just by-pass the law.

Yes, I covered this whole subject back in 2009, here's the thread.

 

[wurly]

That is not true Morphix. I have considered doing exactly that. My other interests include building cars and believe me we all know about BIVA and VOSA and the 'law'. I never believed i would encounter it to such a degree here. I haven't even ridden the thing yet, yet i'm being accused of all sorts of law breaking.
For those concerned i will ask for my thread to be deleted while i think about whether to vacate this UK forum and move to another. Good job Indalo...days work nearly done and it's so easy isn't it.

 

[lemmy]

I don't much care what other people do or whether they get nicked or not.

What I do care about is that I and other less childish people shouldn't all get tarred with the brush of the go-faster head bangers. If there is ever a move for more control or restrictions over e-bikes, it will be as a result of these people, just as irresponsible idiots have screwed over all those legitimate sporting pistol shooters in the UK.

Every once in a while I borrow my brother's BMW GS, much faster than any souped up e-bike. I have insurance, helmet and all the other things needed. If folk want to go faster, why do it the baby way? Buy a motor bike. That way you go much faster and you are still legal. But maybe motor bikes are too big and scary for such people.

In the end, there ought to be a special forum for the boy racers and the dealers selling the illegal bikes with a nod and a wink. The pirated film and music people have their own private forums, why not the electric boy racers?

 

[morphix]

In the grand scheme of things cyclists of all natures don't cause that many accidents anyway. Let alone ebikes.
As long as your not making a 50mph downhill beast to run round the city on you'd be ok.

Why also would they be bothered when the cycling community is so small. And the ebike community even smaller. There are more better things to pool resourse to.
I don't know why this issue bothers a few of you.

I could quite easily take a 250w motor and over volt it a bit. No one would be none the wiser.
I also think the majority of ebike riders are not idiots. We don't have that Market. Most people are not 14 to 20 causing accidents.

Most are keen cyclists or people who want to commute using something other than public transport. Or people who suffer from illness or disability who still want to excercise. The demographic just isn't there.

We the users should be allowed to forge our own reponsibilities and not be thought as mindless idiots that need our hands holding on every issue.

Scottyf you makes a compelling case for a relaxed approach. I wonder if BEBA knows how many accidents were attributed to illegal bikes or if they even monitor this. I think for motorists the risk is someone with an e-bike with high power motor doing 40-50mph and poor brakes hits their car and they're left with a big bill if the other party can't pay it, assuming they survive. Surely there has to be a line drawn somewhere else you could have an "anything goes" situation and sooner or later someone is gonna come a cropper. Also if you do have people travelling 40-50 on a pedal bike that raises some questions about safety, i mean how well can you handle a bicycle at that speed and how safe are they from the torque and braking? They just aren't intended for those speeds eh. I know when I'm going down a hill at 30+ mph its very hard to control the bike and steering, if you had to brake suddenly it would be difficult. This is why vehicles moving at these speeds need to be MOT'd regularly and checked for road safety.

 

[tillson]

I thought this forum was an ebike community where all aspects of buying and biulding ebikes could be discussed.

Just to re-itterate what flecc has already said. This is an eBike community. I have not looked at the thread about your build, but from what you say, I suspect that you have built yourself a mechanically propelled vehicle. Be very clear, that is not an eBike and has nothing to do with the spirit of this forum. Your bike enjoys none of the easements in law to which a legal eBike is entitled and belongs somewhere else and not here on this forum.

All of this off road nonesense fools no one. It is merely a cloak of deception which the illegal eBike users rely on to go about their activities unhindered. What they are actually doing is abusing the reputation of the legal eBike owners.

What the illegal owners want is motorbike / moped performance. But they don't want to pay for it and they don't want all of the legislation and compliance that comes with it. So in order to cherry pick the nice bits and to avoid the unwelcome aspects, they operate by decept pretending to be ordinary law abiding eBike owners.

I have no objection to more power and I can see how it will help some people. But, as things stand we can't have it. Maybe things will change in the future, but operating illegally isn't going to help the case.

 

[Scottyf]

I guess you can take that stance. Maybe I fit into it with the DIY build and a bpm motor.
So I built something a tiny bit quicker. Still cycling speeds but more suited to my own riding style.

I never ride like an idiot and I never brag. But I have built something to my needs.
I also have motorbikes and a car. The ebike I prefer as I get to exercise on my commute. I can use power when tired.

But maybe your right. I should retire and go back to using the bandit 600 instead.

This then again is about the sale and don't think legally its the right thing to do.
I do agree though that the people that push to excess and something out there limits is where the danger lies.

I love my little Honda NSR 2stroke. It's got about 25hp and no power untill 7k and I learnt alot on that bike at 17 though a few years but even that was very very quick and the bike was more capable than I could ride it.
But i didn't ride it flat out everywhere and outside the law

 

[morphix]

That is not true Morphix. I have considered doing exactly that. My other interests include building cars and believe me we all know about BIVA and VOSA and the 'law'. I never believed i would encounter it to such a degree here. I haven't even ridden the thing yet, yet i'm being accused of all sorts of law breaking.
For those concerned i will ask for my thread to be deleted while i think about whether to vacate this UK forum and move to another. Good job Indalo...days work nearly done and it's so easy isn't it.

Don't do that wurly that would be a sad loss if you were to leave. I know opinion is divided over this whole issue and its a hot potato on this forum which comes up and again and again. I guess there's merits to both sides of the argument and I agree in an ideal world we should have more freedom and not need dictating to on everything.

We should just agree to disagree tho I think and accept things as they are. Those who wanna ride over the limit should just be mindful of the extra responsibilities (and possible consequences) that comes with it.

 

[flecc]

I've also no objection to more power or speed, nor to discussion about it, after all I've just been discussing cars in this e-bike forum and I'm all for free speech.

But just as I can't pretend cars are classified as e-bikes, nor can illegal motorised bikes be presented as such. They are motor vehicles in law, just like the cars I was discussing.