should E bike,s have a diagnostic test system
- Thread starter david1949
- Start date
Cheers flecc. Was hoping the controller diagram was in there too though that was only for progressing my knowledge on how things work electronically. Not much use to the average person plus controllers are not to bad priced to replace till you go up into the higher amps. Some things best kept hidden... everyday a learning day, time for some reading.
Hope I didn't offend you shemozzle999. Wasn't put in the best way looking back.
Hope I didn't offend you shemozzle999. Wasn't put in the best way looking back.
C
Cyclezee
Guest
No offence take taken Dreamer.
The written word often does not convey the context in which it was written, something which occurs quite frequently on this and other forums.
The written word often does not convey the context in which it was written, something which occurs quite frequently on this and other forums.
And Onbike are not to far from me if they dont know bout eZee bikes i unno who does .!
Well after reading the threads on this topic it comes down to money and people safety i still cant see the problem why manufactures of e bike cant fit a diagnostic test plug on their e bike to read all the components fitted on the bike . Then it is up to the customer if he or she wants to buy the diagnostic test system coder to read the fault as i do with my Ford Motorhome . This was one thing that i had not given much thought to when i bought my e bike but i can see why some people can be put of a e bike if they have as much trouble with the electric as some members have on this forum are know someone who has electric trouble with there e bikes. You buy a ordinary bike there is plenty of bike shop around the country to carry out repairs if you cant but e bike dealers are few and far . I will say e Zee has went out of their way to help customers with their technical manual but again people who cant work on a e bike wont buy because there is no dealer support around where they live.
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They don't include the controller internals since agents also use that manual and keep replacement controllers in stock. It probably wouldn't be possible or economic for them to diagnose and repair them anyway.
Not mentioning names, there are one or two on here! Some of the requests for 'help' can only reasonably be answered by saying 'Don't touch anything. Go straight to your dealer'. E-bike electrics can be seriously dangerous in unskilled hands, or more specifically, the batteries can. A fire or an explosion can be close by if an unprotected short circuit occurs. Indeed, the systems are all low voltage - but with an almost unlimited current available, just as in a car, you could burn out the whole electrical system and have a fire on your hands - possibly in your hallway.
That's apart from the daft and comical but still dangerous things that can happen - like sudden full power when you're tinkering and not expecting it, and certainly not aboard the bike.
Rog.
That why I mentioned about beginners classes, if you cant use a meter or understand ohms law etc 'DONT TOUCH'. Over the years I've had to repair a lot of vehicle wiring due to this. Despite my experience I am still learning about batteries so often come on here asking the guys who know, so do lets encourage peeps but in a safe manner
When i talk about diagnostic testing on e bikes i mean the same as what i replaced the other day in my van light comes on in dash fault with cooling system plugged in diagnostic tester found that it was a faulty sensor so bought new one from Ford . So come on a e bike has about 6 companions on it that could be read with a tester and replaced if needed. You talk about batteries and fires and make it all completed it is not it is just a reading a diagnostic tester taking a part of and replacing it. OK there is some people who would not know one end of a bike from the other so that i have had my say i still think the manufactures could do it if they had the will .
I agree, that's just like the setup eZee have. The diagnostic indication is given and their recommendation where appropriate is to change the offending component. For example, the replacement controller comes prewired with plug in connectors that can't be swapped, so even an electrical novice can change it.
I hear you Rog and Muckymits, I do forget sometimes that some people don't understand the basics in using electrical equipment. Once the mistake was made I then advised him to take up the offer from another member to fix it for him. Maybe bit late but well...
You are correct though and it is taken on board. Thank you for bringing it up.
On the subject of battery faults due to bad solder joints or like the fault I had- nut coming of the kettle plug and rattling about inside the main unit probably shorting out the BMS board, are totally unacceptable. Lets be honest more solder on one and dab of loctite on other. But thats another topic.
That was a good example of how a manual should look flecc. I noticed there was no mention regarding the dangers involved with these high output batteries. I would have thought there would be a legal requirement to put a warning in the manual or on the battery? read the wisper one too and it was the same.
I know Im off topic but had to reply to my public spanking
"I will say e Zee has went out of their way to help customers with their technical manual but again people who cant work on a e bike wont buy because there is no dealer support around where they live."
Valid point, nearly put me off. I spose you can only advice people with little know how on maintenance to buy the right product for them. Would be nice to have a standard though as there is little excuse not to have a diagnostic feature in all controllers. Right whos going to tell the Chinese!
You are correct though and it is taken on board. Thank you for bringing it up.
On the subject of battery faults due to bad solder joints or like the fault I had- nut coming of the kettle plug and rattling about inside the main unit probably shorting out the BMS board, are totally unacceptable. Lets be honest more solder on one and dab of loctite on other. But thats another topic.
That was a good example of how a manual should look flecc. I noticed there was no mention regarding the dangers involved with these high output batteries. I would have thought there would be a legal requirement to put a warning in the manual or on the battery? read the wisper one too and it was the same.
I know Im off topic but had to reply to my public spanking
"I will say e Zee has went out of their way to help customers with their technical manual but again people who cant work on a e bike wont buy because there is no dealer support around where they live."
Valid point, nearly put me off. I spose you can only advice people with little know how on maintenance to buy the right product for them. Would be nice to have a standard though as there is little excuse not to have a diagnostic feature in all controllers. Right whos going to tell the Chinese!
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.Whilst on the subject of electrical safety, here are a few points that are often overlooked. Never wear a finger ring or a metallic neck chain whilst working around batteries. If you short circuit a battery with a finger ring, enough amps will flow through the ring to burn your finger off. Short circuit it with your neck chain, and if you live you will end up looking like Frankenstein`s monster. Avoid working on live circuits, but if there is no other way, use tools that are insulated apart from the tip. As you get older, it is too easy to assume everyone has had the same experience as you have. To repeat, never connect an ampmeter [or a multimeter on amps range] across a battery or charger. Indeed do not connect an ampmeter to anything unless you know exactly what you are doing.
eZee have the legal requirement covered too, since they issue a comprehensive User Manual as well as the open access Tech Manual. Page 5 covers the battery warnings and I've linked to the the User Manual via my eZee support website below, though my copy is a bit out of date.
The eZee principal Wai Won Ching isn't a native Chinese, he's a Singaporean which may account for his relative diligence in these respects. He's also a keen long distance rider of his own bikes and has been engaged in riding the Silk Route in stages in recent years.
eZee User Manual, All Models
All Oxygen bikes that are OXYDrive powered have now the diagnostics module so in case of any fault the error code comes up on the LCD console. This applies to all new 2012 bikes onwards. All our batteries also have a diagnostics module so we scan all cell groups in case of a defect.
all the best
Andrew
all the best
Andrew
When I bought the Wisper I did so in the certainty that I'd be able to find my way around it if I had any problems. For that reason I was happy to make my purchase mail-order from a supplier an inconvenient distance away.
Not everyone is in that fortunate position, and so their choices are necessarily limited by the proximity of a dealer who can help, or alternatively those who will still do all they can at a distance. Once again Wisper have always had the best of reputations (note my exact choice of words!) for customer support.
The 905 (2008 vintage) is fairly basic electrically - I got the final version with the '20%-80%' selector box to adjust the pedelec assist. Nevertheless I soon realized that it would need to be - for me at least - a throttle-only bike as the pedelec sensor was either on or off, and the 80% setting was just too brutal for in-traffic riding, while the default 20% setting was barely any use at all.
I have no complaints - I'm still using it (not today though - bloody weather) and find the throttle operation suits me fine.
As far as diagnostics are concerned - well, there aren't any. Red light - the bike is switched on. Yellow light - the battery isn't too close to being flat. Green light - it's almost fully charged. The yellow and green lights are just voltage-driven (threshold) devices, and only meaningful if the motor is switched off. That's fine for me.
Technology has moved on though - in the past three years there have been huge advances. Panasonic have woken up to the fact that there's life outside Japan, and now produce a system which is miles ahead of their original stuff. Flecc will agree that they had a 'take it or leave it' attitude to their product, but that's all changed now. Other controller manufacturers - even the oriental ones - are now playing catch up with the additional features on offer, mainly in the intelligent LCD department.
Competition in the market does finally seem to be making a difference. Even though we're still a curious minority in cycling terms the major players have got on board at last. When an outfit like Kalkhoff/Derby decide to produce their own system from scratch (not quite a Panasonic lookalike), that says a lot. Doing that in Germany must have cost them a small fortune in development costs. I suspect it's no accident that this year for the first time Panasonic have produced a 36 volt system.
Getting back to diagnostics - it's a tricky subject. The best diagnostics (not specifically bike orientated) involve software on a PC and a USB port so it can be plugged in. Then, as long as the controller CPU is operational, it's possible to see what's going on throughout the system. Manufacturers are either loath to go down that route or, if they do, getting hold of the software isn't easy. Look at the car and commercial vehicle market - they've been highly electronic for quite a few years now, but apart from limited diagnostic display sharing space with clocks/speedos/odometers (which cost nothing to implement and don't really allow the customer to tinker) that's all you get - unless you're an 'official' dealer and can afford to send your mechanics at some expense on factory training courses which then allows you to buy proper access software. The point about that is you need to be able to interpret what the diagnostics is telling you - it's an aid to diagnosis, it doesn't do all the work for you.
Put another way, diagnostics are only really effective if used in an informed way - if a light is on, you know there's power - but how do you approach other failures? Very quickly you get to need additional hardware just to do the monitoring for the diagnostics - that puts up the development costs, and the production costs, and of course the retail price of the product. Also, you make a reliable product - do you want to tell the final user too much when you really want him/her to use the proper maintenance channels.
You used to be able to get your car going with a bit of mechanical and electrical knowledge if it broke down at the roadside. Nowadays you're almost always out of luck if that happens - even the motoring recovery organizations can only deal with so much - then it's a tow to the dealership. Of course breakdowns are rare in modern cars - electronics is inherently reliable. E-bikes too are getting more sophisticated, but don't expect too much in the way of engineering information, AKA diagnostics for idiots. There's no such thing.
Rog.
Not everyone is in that fortunate position, and so their choices are necessarily limited by the proximity of a dealer who can help, or alternatively those who will still do all they can at a distance. Once again Wisper have always had the best of reputations (note my exact choice of words!) for customer support.
The 905 (2008 vintage) is fairly basic electrically - I got the final version with the '20%-80%' selector box to adjust the pedelec assist. Nevertheless I soon realized that it would need to be - for me at least - a throttle-only bike as the pedelec sensor was either on or off, and the 80% setting was just too brutal for in-traffic riding, while the default 20% setting was barely any use at all.
I have no complaints - I'm still using it (not today though - bloody weather) and find the throttle operation suits me fine.
As far as diagnostics are concerned - well, there aren't any. Red light - the bike is switched on. Yellow light - the battery isn't too close to being flat. Green light - it's almost fully charged. The yellow and green lights are just voltage-driven (threshold) devices, and only meaningful if the motor is switched off. That's fine for me.
Technology has moved on though - in the past three years there have been huge advances. Panasonic have woken up to the fact that there's life outside Japan, and now produce a system which is miles ahead of their original stuff. Flecc will agree that they had a 'take it or leave it' attitude to their product, but that's all changed now. Other controller manufacturers - even the oriental ones - are now playing catch up with the additional features on offer, mainly in the intelligent LCD department.
Competition in the market does finally seem to be making a difference. Even though we're still a curious minority in cycling terms the major players have got on board at last. When an outfit like Kalkhoff/Derby decide to produce their own system from scratch (not quite a Panasonic lookalike), that says a lot. Doing that in Germany must have cost them a small fortune in development costs. I suspect it's no accident that this year for the first time Panasonic have produced a 36 volt system.
Getting back to diagnostics - it's a tricky subject. The best diagnostics (not specifically bike orientated) involve software on a PC and a USB port so it can be plugged in. Then, as long as the controller CPU is operational, it's possible to see what's going on throughout the system. Manufacturers are either loath to go down that route or, if they do, getting hold of the software isn't easy. Look at the car and commercial vehicle market - they've been highly electronic for quite a few years now, but apart from limited diagnostic display sharing space with clocks/speedos/odometers (which cost nothing to implement and don't really allow the customer to tinker) that's all you get - unless you're an 'official' dealer and can afford to send your mechanics at some expense on factory training courses which then allows you to buy proper access software. The point about that is you need to be able to interpret what the diagnostics is telling you - it's an aid to diagnosis, it doesn't do all the work for you.
Put another way, diagnostics are only really effective if used in an informed way - if a light is on, you know there's power - but how do you approach other failures? Very quickly you get to need additional hardware just to do the monitoring for the diagnostics - that puts up the development costs, and the production costs, and of course the retail price of the product. Also, you make a reliable product - do you want to tell the final user too much when you really want him/her to use the proper maintenance channels.
You used to be able to get your car going with a bit of mechanical and electrical knowledge if it broke down at the roadside. Nowadays you're almost always out of luck if that happens - even the motoring recovery organizations can only deal with so much - then it's a tow to the dealership. Of course breakdowns are rare in modern cars - electronics is inherently reliable. E-bikes too are getting more sophisticated, but don't expect too much in the way of engineering information, AKA diagnostics for idiots. There's no such thing.
Rog.
What I get for reading when I should have been in my bed. The joys of having Monday off.
Excellent manual and by the looks a good product. Products are usually better when the people involved have a passion for the subject. Quality over money can be a good thing.
"The Chinese" was a flippant comment regarding the the mass production of goods and probably alot of circuit boards in bikes. The quality is not always at the forefront of there minds.
Take a look in The Charging Post for a relevant follow on to this thread - though nothing to do with e-bikes.
Rog.
Rog.
Ebike electronics can only go so far due to all we are asking it todo. A wiring diagram isnt much to ask for. As said previous not everyone stays near a dealer nor have they the money to pay them to diagnose a simple fault never mind having to add carrier charges to get it to them. I agree diagnostic systems will be very limited but that with a wiring diagram will give Mr average a good start point for alot of faults. With that info you could ask anyone with some electrical knowledge to help you fix it ie guy next door.
My lad is a technician at BMW and although the fault code is given it can still be about 5 or 6 things it just narrows it down a bit. My Ezee Torq is playing up and no error light is flashing on the controller as per my other thread. So diagnostics and fault codes are not the answer to everything but can hopefully point you in the right direction. Wiring diagrams etc are what you need at least you cover the bases.
On another point if ebikes go the the route of diagnostics then only the approved dealer can read these codes like cars are today and in the future (they are actively working on this so other independent garages cannot fix them), so you have to go back to the dealer who will charge a fortune. Cars i'm talking about but maybe bikes now if they keep the codes to themselves. At least Ezee have published the codes but in the future who knows?
Just read your long post Rog after posting this but yea your right.
On another point if ebikes go the the route of diagnostics then only the approved dealer can read these codes like cars are today and in the future (they are actively working on this so other independent garages cannot fix them), so you have to go back to the dealer who will charge a fortune. Cars i'm talking about but maybe bikes now if they keep the codes to themselves. At least Ezee have published the codes but in the future who knows?
Just read your long post Rog after posting this but yea your right.
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