Shortlist down to 2 (Orbea/Wisper) - Thoughts/Comments

[Kudoscycles]

Mmmmm. Might be a good subject for a New Topic....

Bob...you may have missed my recent thread....has any supplier found a way of type approving e-bikes so as to retain full speed throttles...there was much discussion but nobody seems to have a method of type approving in the UK.
My feeling is that most of us will supply with set off throttles,up to 4 mph,and 15 mph throttles are legally finished. Not that legals seem to mean much to many e-bike sellers,with the police and trading standards pretty much turning a blind eye to dongles and S-class bikes,which are prevalent on the roads,especially around London....I suspect there will be an equal number of suppliers who will just ignore the law and continue to supply 15 mph throttles.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.
The throttle will not be outlawed as such.
In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.
The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

Tree,do you know a way of type approving an e-bike in the UK?
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

The use of a throttle on a EAPC is not compulsory. The fitting of a throttle simply makes cycling more inclusive.

 

[JuicyBike]

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

All the best, David

That's not quite how I interpreted the document we discussed David and perhaps it's wise to wait for their final version.
Currently there seems to be only one type approval criteria - that for L1e. But we're way off topic discussing that here. I wouldn't want to hazard an interpretation ahead of their final decision, however sure I am of what's going to be allowed to be sold.
I just hope retailers aren't holding too much stock...

 

[Kudoscycles]

Currently there is no way Dave, although we are expecting clarification from DfT soon (ish)!

At a recent meeting of the Bicycle Association EBike group, after carefully reviewing current legislation, members have decided on a joint way forward. On some members' bikes throttles will be available as a boost start up to 4mph and then to 15.5mph whilst the pedals are being rotated forwards.

All the best, David

David....the operation of thumb throttles or twist and go up to 15mph whilst turning the pedals seems the norm on virtually every e-bike,certainly all the Chinese ones.
One of my employees spotted it by accident,hitting the throttle when pedalling. But this seemed of minor value,it gave you max power irrespective of the PAS setting,but you could achieve the same by increasing the PAS to max-not exactly an onerous operation.
The best use of the throttle is if disabled and unable to continuously pedal or going round a roundabout,sort of coasting,then spot a gap using the throttle to go for it.
I once loaded my little folder like a refugee,from the supermarket I bought too much ..... the stuff for a carload and suddenly remembered I had the bike.....the load would not allow turning of the pedals but using the throttle I happily made it home.
Most of the time the throttle is redundant but it has its moments,essential for a disabled person I suspect.....aren't our government supposed to help the disabled to get out?
Did not BEBA point out that the government by linking throttles and type approval without a method of getting type approval was stupid? Also that they would by creating such uncertainty do a lot of damage to the small UK e-bike industry?
With your involvement in the German e-bike industry how is it that the Germans seem to get type approval relatively easily...unfortunately they don't seem to have much interest in throttles.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Terry....the ex test bike Kudos Rapide is now on e-bay auction,that particular bike is almost new.....we didn't do many shows this year and at most did not offer test rides.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

David (Amps)...please give us the name of the contact at the DfT so that all disabled persons can write into him to tell him the stupidity of linking throttles to type approval,without a mechanism to achieve type approval.
My experience is government employees hate personal publicity,they prefer to be mandarins in the background protecting their gold plated pensions.
Contact name please?
KudosDave

 

[D8ve]

The pension is gold plated, but now mostly lead underneath.
It's pay into and receive pension based on the payments.
The full final salary thing was cut years ago.
Oh and the good pension was supposed to offset lower wage.
They have retained the lower wage part for public servants but perhaps not for elected officials.

 

[JuicyBike]

Gentlefolk. Stick to this Topic. We're way off the subject now and being of little use to Terry.

 

[Cyclezee]

Gentlefolk. Stick to this Topic. We're way off the subject now and being of little use to Terry.

I have met Terry, he is an intelligent adult and quite capable of sifting through the froth.

So far it seems that other than Rob and Kiwi's comments an independent comparison is not forthcoming, so should we just let this thread wither and die?
If we do keep posting the thread won't get buried and there is always a chance that someone, remote as that may seem, will offer a comprehensive review of the two bikes that Terry mentioned at the start of this thread.

 

[JuicyBike]

I have met Terry, he is an intelligent adult and quite capable of sifting through the froth.

So far it seems that other than Rob and Kiwi's comments an independent comparison is not forthcoming, so should we just let this thread wither and die?
If we do keep posting the thread won't get buried and there is always a chance that someone, remote as that may seem, will offer a comprehensive review of the two bikes that Terry mentioned at the start of this thread.

Well said.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I agree, the post has gone way off topic. A few of us even trying desperately to sell bikes that are not mentioned?

This was a direct request for a comparison between two bikes. Hence the discussion on centre motors vs hub motors, throttles etc. All relevant stuff surely.

All the best David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David (Amps)...please give us the name of the contact at the DfT so that all disabled persons can write into him to tell him the stupidity of linking throttles to type approval,without a mechanism to achieve type approval.
My experience is government employees hate personal publicity,they prefer to be mandarins in the background protecting their gold plated pensions.
Contact name please?
KudosDave

Hi Dave if you or anyone else would like to email me the name and email addresses of anyone interested I will happily put together a letter.

All the best David

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hi Dave if you or anyone else would like to email me the name and email addresses of anyone interested I will happily put together a letter.

All the best David

No David....we need to know the name of the guy who is responsible for developing the regs such that throttles are linked to type approval and no mechanism has been provided to achieve that type approval.
You can have many meetings in private which appear to achieve nothing,but 100 disabled people writing into this guy,with press involvement will be very effective. Writing with emotion and explaining that this decision has taken away their independence to ride bicycles will achieve so much more.
The government have just updated a paper specifically to support disabled people in their quest for more independence,this decision to delete these throttles is in direct opposition to that paper and directly in contrast to Camerons big society.
Names please who attended the last meeting on this subject?
This subject has been kept too much behind closed doors we need to lobby those involved to get some action to resolve this issue.
You know that once I get my teeth into an issue I wont leave it alone.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Ok ,to return to the OP.
The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.
The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.
The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph
Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.
Is that back on topic.
KudosDave

 

[Cyclezee]

Ok ,to return to the OP.
The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.
The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.
The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph
Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.
Is that back on topic.
KudosDave

Dave,
You can see the full specification of the Wisper if you click on the drop down menus for each component on this page https://amps.bike/product/wisper-905-torque/
If that is the bike Terry decides on I would recommend opting for the higher capacity battery although that does bump the price up to £1699.

David,

If Terry does buy the Wisper don't forget the usual commission

Just a reminder, the Heinzmann is £200 cheaper

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Ok ,to return to the OP.
The Keram is very similar to any number of other Bosch powered bikes,it has the same specification to justify the around £2k price. The choice between these seems to come down to minor spec,style or even clour choice.
The Wisper is a compltely different bike,with its hub drive. David does not give a full spec so its difficult to determine...but assuming hydraulic brakes,BPM type of motor and good secondary parts £1499 seems about right.
The bikes will ride completely different,the Keram will have a smooth even placid ride,all these Bosch bikes are much the same. Assuming the aforementioned BPM hub motor,the Wisper will have more hillclimbing grunt especially above 6 mph
Being so different,you will like one and reject the other,its all down to a test ride,its whatever type you like.
Is that back on topic.
KudosDave

Thanks Dave,

I'll need to change my website! If you click on the various headings under specifications you will find a detailed description of all the components. If you can't find them, no one will!

The bike has decent hydraulic brakes, a good cassette, rather than a freewheel, good suspension form Sunrace with pretension and lock out. £1,499 is tight!

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

No David....we need to know the name of the guy who is responsible for developing the regs such that throttles are linked to type approval and no mechanism has been provided to achieve that type approval.
You can have many meetings in private which appear to achieve nothing,but 100 disabled people writing into this guy,with press involvement will be very effective. Writing with emotion and explaining that this decision has taken away their independence to ride bicycles will achieve so much more.
The government have just updated a paper specifically to support disabled people in their quest for more independence,this decision to delete these throttles is in direct opposition to that paper and directly in contrast to Camerons big society.
Names please who attended the last meeting on this subject?
This subject has been kept too much behind closed doors we need to lobby those involved to get some action to resolve this issue.
You know that once I get my teeth into an issue I wont leave it alone.
KudosDave

Hi Dave, it was a closed meeting so I don't feel comfortable disclosing everyone's name. However several EBike producers were there along with the MCIA and some big retailers. I appreciate you don't enjoy associations and have had bad experience of them in the past, however we would welcome you as a member anytime, you could then be 100% in the picture. The same applies to anyone in the trade who would like to become a member. Flecc you, as discussed previously have an open invitation as a guest.

Best regards, David

 

[oldtom]

it was a closed meeting so I don't feel comfortable disclosing everyone's name. However several EBike producers were there along with the MCIA and some big retailers.

Really! I can't for the life of me think why this can't be in the public domain unless BEBA is the name of a masonic lodge.

Tom