Shortlist down to 2 (Orbea/Wisper) - Thoughts/Comments

[Wisper Bikes]

Difficulties?

We supply Wisper and Bosch powered Riese and Muller bikes to the trade in the uk, so have no particular axe to grind.

The problem with centre drive motors apart from the noise when riding is the damage caused to the drive train. All that extra power gives premature chain stretch, premature wear on the sprockets and problems with Shimano hub gears on motors apart from the weaker powered models. Active in the case of Bosch.

On the other hand centre motors are great in that they have torque sensors rather than cadence sensors and are better for very steep hill climbing.

With more and more sophisticated hub systems coming onto the market the gap between the two systems is narrowing. It really is about personal preference.

All the best David

 

[EddiePJ]

Running both systems I'm not buying into this.

I also asked Juicy to respond, as posting a sweeping comment/generalisation without expanding upon with reason, is completely pointless and meaningless to the thread, and is of no help to the OP.

The noise of the Bosch mid drive system is not even worthy of note when comparing, and certainly not when comparing either my past or present hub drive systems.

Premature chain wear and sprocket wear is significantly down to rider use and maintenance/ care of the system. Indeed from my experience, chain wear is just the same. Replacement cost is hardly going to break the bank.

As you and Juicy appear to be quick to dismiss comments by others, the Op's choice of mid drive does not have hub gears, so the comment about hub gears is completely irrelevant to the two choices, and to use the words of Juicy, "stay on topic"

To sum up, the one and only gripe that you can come up when dismissing crank/mid drive versus hub drive in the case of the OP's choice, is chain wear and noise. Both of which can easily be dismissed.

When comparing the two bikes, you should also mention the negatives of hub drive, such as the inconvenience and added hassle of rear wheel removal, for puncture repair, and weekly/routine maintenance.

As said Terry, widen your selection.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Eddie,

Great to see you are so passionate about electric bikes!

I have absolutely no gripe with Bosch mid drive systems, we sell hundreds of Bosch bikes. I love them! Just trying to give an unbiased view on the real differences between mid drive and hub drive.

There is absolutely no problem with wheel removal on modern hub drive bikes and probably less maintenance than Bosch, especially when considering chain and sprocket wear.

I am absolutely on Topic, discussing the differences between Bosch and hub drive. We sell and maintain both so we really do know what we are talking about.

Re the motor noise, the Wisper is significantly quieter than the Bosch system. Again a very important point when making the choice, don't you agree?

All the best

David

 

[JuicyBike]

Terry should definitely try both bikes and if possible, broaden his selection (though after a year searching he may not want to). The £300 difference is a chunk of money, but if he values sensitivity of pedaling as the main factor, then I'd say there is little difference in the two bikes.

I think Eddie's experience is extremely valid and a useful perspective.

I have a preference for removing complexity in any system. For me, I'd go for the simplest solution to a goal - in this case I've assumed the goal is a natural pedal experience. Both bikes achieve that, one is more expensive.

 

[EddiePJ]

If you were to ask Joe Bloggs to remove and refit a rear wheel using both drive systems, the mid drive is always going to be easier and less hassle. You don't need to be carrying and using an 18mm spanner for one thing, let alone confusing or daunting non mechanically minded owners with having to pull and refit connecting blocks. I have trouble with neither, but I know which I'd rather be changing in the dark on a rainy commute.
I would add, that being sensible, practice runs would be advisable to new owners of either system. It doesn't take much to be proficient at both.

In relation to chain wear, and from over time reading many comments just on this forum alone, many are getting very favourable mileage out of their mid drive systems. I have found no difference, and as said, the cost isn't exactly going to break the bank.

Noise wise, perhaps I have been lucky in that when I ride the Bosch powered bike, I can hardly hear it, and certainly when pedalling along side others when letting them try it, I can't hear it at all. I haven't tried a Wisper, so can't comment on that, but when compared with my past and previous hub drive, there probably isn't any difference, and I actually notice the hub drive noise far more.

What I should have added to my post above, but neglected to, was that if Terry is just choosing between the two bikes indicated, the Wisper would be my choice. This being based upon cost difference, and active support of supplier on the forum. The latter can count for a lot.

 

[Kudoscycles]

When I started Kudos,some 5 years ago,Bosch absolutely refused to supply motors to be fitted into Asian assembled bikes. They did that to protect the pricing structure of German assembled bikes.
The Chinese have tried during that time to produce crank drive motors with varying success,some of the motors were cheap but crude in operation,the crank system has to have some method of winding the power down on gear change to avoid gear change,under load,problems.
The latest Bafang crank drive system seems the equal to the Bosch,so is the Yamaha,so they now have some competition.
In the meantime the Chinese developed hub drive to the point that it matched many of the features of crank drive and avoided the complications of gear changes under load,the latest Bafang BPM motors have such a wide torque spread especially at low speed.
I think Bosch has done a wonderful marketing job,especially in the critical German market and the German bike assemblers have a vested interest in protecting the Bosch product to maintain their higher pricing structure.
Ironically,in the UK,we are late to the Pedelecs party and much more flexible in our approach to buying choice,Bosch still has a strong presence but customers will consider alternatives hence the success of hub drive in the UK.
I have looked at the Bafang crank system but the rrp would have to be close to German prices and we have an attitude in the UK that German build must be the best and prepared to pay a premium for it.
So hub drive does what most people in the UK want from their e-bike and at a price level most are prepared to pay.
Having just read Eddies post above I do agree about difficulties on changing a tube,but on any e-bike it is not easy due to the weight of the bike,one of those easy change tubes and a simple pump should be essential spares on a pedelec.
KudosDave

 

[Yamdude]

Hub or mid drive.... which is best ?... Only one way to find out..

 

[RobF]

I agree that 'crank drives eat chains' is not borne out by experience.

Just to complicate matters, I believe my Rose doesn't wear the chain partly because it has hub gears - the chain line is always perfect and there's no scraping across a cassette to change gears.

If there is a difference in wear rate, it's not big enough to be worth considering as part of the buying decision.

Always assuming you are comparing quality with quality with quality.

Eddie's two bikes are a good example - a quality crank drive and a quality rear hub drive.

I would be happy to ride either.

 

[EddiePJ]

Yamdude, they are just different.

Everyone's a winner.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I tried the link to the Wisper 905 but the spec is not visible....unlike David he is normally very precise in his descriptions....what is the hub motor used in the Wisper?
One wonders what would be the situation if Bosch had produced a hub drive and put their marketing and r&d behind hub drive,would crank drive have ever been considered?
KudosDave

 

[EddiePJ]

That would make for a very interesting and separate topic. Not a which is better, but a history of and development of topic. From I'm guessing home brew starter motor powered bikes using lead acid car batteries, to what we have now and what the future might hold.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Off topic for a moment....

Absolutely right Eddie, ten years ago when I started Wisper, the choice of motors and more importantly controllers was nothing compared to today. Most importantly though, I would not have had a clue what the difference was between the systems anyway!

The motor we use on our latest bikes is built for export only by probably the biggest producer of motors in China. We were attracted to it by the size, weight and hi torque. What we have done, and what makes the new Wispers a little different, is to concentrate on how the motor is run by the controller software.

Using a sine wave controller goes a long way to reduce noise, however the algorithm we have developed along side our partners in China is the real break through. It cleverly splices information from the three sensors in the system to give a very smooth and quiet ride. Very much like the Bosch system but IMO better.

I know I get carried away in these discussions and apologise for doing so. I really do try not to get involved and am normally happy just to "lurk" in the background. I am simply very passionate about what I do for a living. So please excuse me!!

I would be very happy to expand in a separate thread on the history and development of Wisper, the ups and the downs, there have been a few of those!

All the best, David

 

[anotherkiwi]

Don't I get a medal for being the only one who replied to the OP's question without wandering off subject? I mean it isn't like I ever wander off subject...

 

[trex]

No throttle?
As a first bike, most people would prefer the throttle to torque sensor.

 

[oldtom]

No throttle?
As a first bike, most people would prefer the throttle to torque sensor.

How do you arrive at that Trex? I disagree for this reason; cyclists don't have throttles on their push-bikes so when they first try out EAPCs, they expect them to behave much as their push-bike but with less effort required to pedal, particularly the difficult bits.

Gentle pedalling is enhanced a little, so no great effort is required to produce forward motion. When you add in the fact that increasing pedal effort brings about the same reaction as it does on a push-bike, surely that is what would be expected?

The introduction of a throttle is alien to the concept of cycling and is something borrowed from the realm of motorcycling. Why, then, would cyclists prefer a throttle? They didn't have one on any push-bike so just stopped for a breather if they got tired.

Perhaps everybody is in such a hurry today that stopping for a few minutes on a bike would cause something catastrophic to happen in their world? Given that the average age of EAPC users is closer to 95 than 15, I doubt very much if a few minutes here or there would make much difference.

Only those EAPCs equipped with a torque sensor successfully replicate the physical requirement of cycling.

Tom

 

[trex]

How do you arrive at that Trex?

I have shown dozens of people how to ride an electric bike. A lot of people attracted to e-bikes are not proficient cyclists, they find easy and re-assuring to be able to ride an e-bike like a scooter to start with, then later on, as a pedelec. My guess is they will find their legs getting stronger over time and will not bother with the throttle anymore.

 

[shemozzle999]

How do you arrive at that Trex? I disagree for this reason; cyclists don't have throttles on their push-bikes so when they first try out EAPCs, they expect them to behave much as their push-bike but with less effort required to pedal, particularly the difficult bits.

Gentle pedalling is enhanced a little, so no great effort is required to produce forward motion. When you add in the fact that increasing pedal effort brings about the same reaction as it does on a push-bike, surely that is what would be expected?

The introduction of a throttle is alien to the concept of cycling and is something borrowed from the realm of motorcycling. Why, then, would cyclists prefer a throttle? They didn't have one on any push-bike so just stopped for a breather if they got tired.

Perhaps everybody is in such a hurry today that stopping for a few minutes on a bike would cause something catastrophic to happen in their world? Given that the average age of EAPC users is closer to 95 than 15, I doubt very much if a few minutes here or there would make much difference.

Only those EAPCs equipped with a torque sensor successfully replicate the physical requirement of cycling.

Tom

You are still in denial. You ride an ebike. All ebikes have throttles.

Your throttle is foot operated.

 

[JuicyBike]

As neither of the bikes mentioned in the OP have throttles how they are used is just a distraction. They are soon to be outlawed in the UK anyway from Jan 2016, as far as "bicycles" are concerned, much to my frustration.

 

[trex]

... They are soon to be outlawed in the UK anyway from Jan 2016, as far as "bicycles" are concerned, much to my frustration.

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.
The throttle will not be outlawed as such.
In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.
The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

 

[JuicyBike]

talk of 'outlawed' without qualification is misleading.
The throttle will not be outlawed as such.
In view of the popularity of the throttle, some manufacturers will apply for type approval or reprogram the controller.
The Woosh Gallego for example has the full throttle enabled only if the PAS signal is received more or less continuously.

Mmmmm. Might be a good subject for a New Topic....