Shamano STEPS,latest spec

[Kudoscycles]

Has anyone ridden a bike fitted with the Shimano Steps system or an impartial bike test?
KudosDave

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I have not yet, would also be great to know more from someone impartial.

I am very happy with both Bosch and Yamaha at the moment. From all I have read it does not appear to warrant us adding to our range of high end crank drives.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Wow,rapid response....I have heard that the Steps system lacks power but haven't had a chance to ride one myself....one of my customers said he tried the Yamaha system against the Bosch ,he said the Yamaha was more powerful and it's cheaper.
Euro bike show coming up August end,I intend to go this year. Opportunity to test the various crank systems available.
I find customers buy the crank systems because they have been told it's better but my personal opinion is that the BPM or Panasonic hub drive does everything these crank systems do,without the complications.
KudosDave

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

If you want my opinion on Yamaha, it is more powerful than the Bosch at least as powerful as Impulse if not more so. However it is not quite as smooth as Bosch and there is one less level of assistance.

I love the Panasonic hub drive however customer feedback has been the opposite which is why we stock more high end crank drives than hub drives.

DW

 

[Kudoscycles]

Oops...I notice the computer altered my heading to Shamano,I spelt it correctly Shimano,I cannot edit the heading...have others noticed that spelling checkers on these computers are sometimes 'annoyingly'....I typed in 'annoying'
KudosDave

 

[EddiePJ]

The biggest disadvantage of the Bosch system when compared to the Yamaha system, or at least in the case of an e-mtb use, is the stupid sprocket size. The control console also looks to be more compact on the Yamaha system.

I've not tried the Yamaha unit, but in my case, I very much doubt that one less level of assistance would have any impact on things. It might even make for a broader spread of assistance.

In reference to the Panasonic hub, I really rate it.

 

[flecc]

my personal opinion is that the BPM or Panasonic hub drive does everything these crank systems do,without the complications.
KudosDave

My opinion too. Ten years ago when battery shortcomings meant both hub and crank systems had low power in the interests of adequate range, crank drive made sense as a way of getting up hills with limited power.

Today's batteries permit much higher power and torque with good range, so that need no longer exists and these crank drive disadvantages come into play:

1) High power driving through the bike chain brings excessive chain and sprocket wear.

2) Hub gear torque limits come into play with high power applied. leading to lower life and reliability.

3) Riders need a lot of gears, but an electric motor covering the 5 to 20 mph range only needs one, or two at most. It follows that the majority of gears chosen to suit a rider are not commensurate with best motor efficiency.

4) The greater complexity of crank systems means owner servicing and repair are not practical for most. As a result crank drive makers often don't offer any spares or support service. Conversely the comparatively simple hub motors are often quite easily repairable with spares available.

Conclusion: Given that today's high torque motors like the BPM, BPM/CST and Panasonic rear hub motor, plus the two speed hub motors like the Xionda can easily do the whole job, there is no point in suffering crank drive disadvantages.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

As a brand that does...

Crank drive Shimano, Crank drive Bosch, Crank drive Panasonic and hub drive Panasonic...

I think we can say that having spoken to a good number of dealers over the past number of years, there is one clear reason why its good to have options, and thats because there is no perfect system. They all offer benefits and equally negatives.

We have some dealers that say they can't sell one aspect of the brand, because there is no demand, and then another very similar shop, who only sell that system and have people driving a long way to buy the bikes.

As a shop owner you'll sell what you're passionate about and what you believe in most easily. Whether that is "better" or not isn't that relevant, and certainly "power" or "torque" might be the numbers many people on here care about, but again its not something that a high % of end users really need to know about or care about. They just want a bike that rides nicely, is reliable and will do what they want it to do, with the back up of a good, knowledgeable dealer, at a price point they are comfortable with. In many cases it even comes down to the colour!

Having spent a lot of time on Bosch and Panasonic Hub drive bikes, the conclusion is .... I need both with a support car behind me so I can swap between them at various points on a ride. There is always circumstances when having spent time on both, you realise the other is better in some small way.

However for most people, they will buy one bike and ride it lots and essentially not know what they are missing in terms of the minor performance differences.

 

[RobF]

A mate of mine in the trade found the Shimano Steps to be noisy and unrefined in comparison to other crank drives.

Noise from crank bikes - if not all ebikes - seems to vary from the same model, so the one my mate tried may have been a poor.

I've had a brief go on a Yamaha crank bike.

Very similar to Bosch, so I like it.

 

[flecc]

As a shop owner you'll sell what you're passionate about and what you believe in most easily. Whether that is "better" or not isn't that relevant, and certainly "power" or "torque" might be the numbers many people on here care about, but again its not something that a high % of end users really need to know about or care about. They just want a bike that rides nicely, is reliable and will do what they want it to do, with the back up of a good, knowledgeable dealer, at a price point they are comfortable with. In many cases it even comes down to the colour!

Indeed, and it's good for customers to have choice in all consumer fields. Many don't necessarily have the best products to meet their needs, but if they are happy, that's all that matters.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

John Harvey-Jones ex boss of ICI,was once asked by an apprentice.....'sir,what is the best product we make'.....'laddy,the one that most of our customers want to buy'.

 

[EddiePJ]

Noise from crank bikes - if not all ebikes - seems to vary from the same model

I wonder why that is, and where the noise comes from to make them so different.

Certainly in my case the second motor was near on silent when compared with the first, and when letting mates ride it with me using the pedal mtb, I found myself frequently asking if they had it turned on.
I could be wrong, but the noise of the motor appears to increase as bearings wear/settle in. Whether this means that there is a lot of difference between bearing batches from new, I wouldn't know, but it is something that I've observed.

They just want a bike that rides nicely, is reliable and will do what they want it to do, with the back up of a good, knowledgeable dealer, at a price point they are comfortable with. In many cases it even comes down to the colour!

Oddly I was thinking pretty much exactly this yesterday whilst reading another thread. With so many manufacturers choosing to use the same brand of motor/battery, and almost the same mechanical spec when comparing like for like on cost scale, the choice of what to buy must come down to things such as dealer location and dealer reputation, support offered by said dealer and manufacturer, brand loyalty, and as you say even colour. From the outside as an end user, I can see that dealers must have to really work hard to get that sale, and earn every penny of getting it. I can certainly think of easier ways to earn a living, even if they wouldn't seemingly be as interesting.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Eddie...you are absolutely right. The problem is from the outside looking in,it appears that selling e-bikes is easy money and the hype from the industry reinforces that.
There are constantly new entrants,who buy a container load,they soon realise that marketing and selling e-bikes is difficult,they sell a few,cannibalise a few-because they didn't buy spares,then give up and dump the rest on e-bay....the Chinese have a not too complimentary term for these one timers.
Those in it for the long haul,realise that patience and brand building are important,so is offering a range-10 types is probably the minimum.
I suspect that most of us don't 100 per cent rely on e-bike sales,it needs to be supported by another business for the lean times of the year.
Having said the foregoing,it is good fun trying to keep up with the technology and these bikes are still at the pioneering stage,five years down the road they will be much lighter and user friendly,probably cheaper.
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

At the moment I think we're on about an average of 3 calls a week from people...

"thinking of setting up an eBike shop"

Lots with other business, either Cycle Shops, cars, motorbikes or just people with a pension, redundancy or savings, seeing it as the next big thing.

Most don't have a clue about whats required to properly support eBike sales.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Actually,you need a lot of skills to look after these e-bikes. A knowledge of bikes is a good start,then a knowledge of electronics and a common sense problem solver.
You also need to be a marketing expert without spending a fortune.
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Being able to fix a puncture, true a wheel and generally look after all the non e bits of the bike is also crucial. If eBike shops don't (in some cases) really start upping their game in terms of looking after the rest of the bike, many will find the traditional bikes shops in their towns get to grips with the e bit, and suddenly the eBike specialist shop won't be offering anything special.

There are some VERY good eBike specialist shops, but others are only currently surviving because there is no competition.