Sensible Improvements

[flecc]

Yes, there certainly is a correlation and measuring these is exactly the same thing, and again it's done by the ladder IC system I mentioned.

The reasons the shaver seems to get it virtually right are threefold. First, the small shaver batteries have very little depth of electrolyte, probably also fairly low particle density, so the voltage release of the electrolyte surface at the electrodes fairly accurately reflects the whole charge density. by contrast, our bike batteries have considerable depth of electrolyte which is of very small particle and very high density consistency to hold the very large charge. The surface voltage release therefore doesn't accurately indicate the charge density elswwhere in the electrolyte, it takes time for the current to work it's way out, hence the chemical exhaustion that's mentioned elsewhere.

Secondly, the shaver batteries are being virtually fully discharged each time, and this resets the ladder IC circuit base point, giving better measurement accuracy. When we part charge Li-ions to maximise their life, the base point accuracy is progressively lost, we need to discharge fully from time to time to maintain it.

Thirdly, there are typically just two cells in the shaver, both of very predictable performance due to their small size, so the estimation of capacity held by means of measurement of tiny voltage variation is quite accurate. There are 10 cells in our Li-ion batteries, of not so predictable performance, and the voltage variation of the individual cells is not consistent, so the guestimation from the sum of those isn't going to be very good. Matters are just as bad with NiMh, for although they are more predictable in performance, there's the variations of 30 cells to deal with.

The point to remember remains the same as I keep saying on this subject, we cannot measure the actual amount of charge in the battery by electrical means, it's a chemical device. All we can do is measure the voltage release at the electrode/electrolyte interface and make a deduction from that, which may or may not be accurate. Also, since opening the throttle causes a voltage dip as the motor takes up current, the accuracy will always be haywire as we ride.

 

[rsscott]

Thanks for that Flecc, I shall certainly view my shaver in a different light tomorrow

It is a very interesting topic though as I've seen certain bikes in the states that have fairly detailed battery meters mounted on the handlebars including one with an LCD display. Looks like no one really has a workable solution yet?

Now for something completely different, another 'improvement':

My previous electric bike relied on the twistgrip for use in e-bike mode only. Pedal-assist was accomplished by a sensor on the crank and the bike assisted proportionally to the effort from the rider (e.g. the bottom of this page here). It is something I do miss on the Torq as 10 miles and my left hand is ready to drop off (and I must get around to your twistgrip mod)

 

[flecc]

A further thought occurs, manufacturers are far from dumb, and there are as many technical "fixes" in products as there are cons in advertising. The cheapest thing one can add to an electronic design is a timer, and your manufacturer has probably added one to count down from a given point of battery voltage reduction. That would account for the precise stepped countdown of time left, a normal timer function, with switchoff at the end of the timed period. Of course that would be very accurate, impressing the customer as intended!

 

[flecc]

On those latest points, the LCD is just the same thing with a digital rather than LED readout, but probably using one of the 10 step ICs.

That pedal sensor is a good thing in one way, and it's almost certainly achieved using a strain gauge, the same little device that's used in our electronic kitchen scales and the electronic type of bathroom scales.

However, there's another school of thought on this, that used in arguably the best ever electric bikes like the Lafree, the Panasonic drive system. In this, quite the opposite happens. When the rider works and the pedal cadence rises, the motor reduces it's help on the basis that the rider obviously doesn't need help. Conversely, when the rider hits a hill and the pedal cadence drops as he/she starts to struggle, the motor increasingly comes in with help.

I was using this only this morning towing my huge trailer up my 1 in 8 hill after a rubbish disposal trip. Feeling a bit lazy, I just slowed my pedalling right down and the motor took over most of the work. I think I prefer this system, since the other demands you have to work harder in order to get more help, which seems a bit illogical.

 

[aroncox]

As posted elsewhere, my twist grip no longer springs back, this does have the benefit of meaning I do not have to hold it in place thus saving my hands, and being able to ride nohanded. The onlt down-side is when emergency braking I have to remember to twist it off as well as put on the brakes (oh and turning on the key, I have to check the twist grip is off or I have switched to pedelectric or the bike will run away). So you may want to disable the spring to save your wrists!

Thanks for that Flecc, I shall certainly view my shaver in a different light tomorrow

It is a very interesting topic though as I've seen certain bikes in the states that have fairly detailed battery meters mounted on the handlebars including one with an LCD display. Looks like no one really has a workable solution yet?

Now for something completely different, another 'improvement':

My previous electric bike relied on the twistgrip for use in e-bike mode only. Pedal-assist was accomplished by a sensor on the crank and the bike assisted proportionally to the effort from the rider (e.g. the bottom of this page here). It is something I do miss on the Torq as 10 miles and my left hand is ready to drop off (and I must get around to your twistgrip mod)

 

[rsscott]

Oops, actually this is what happened. The assistance was inversely proportional to the effort you put in. The motor would gradually offer less assistance until you reached the top speed of 15mph.

<snip> When the rider works and the pedal cadence rises, the motor reduces it's help on the basis that the rider obviously doesn't need help. Conversely, when the rider hits a hill and the pedal cadence drops as he/she starts to struggle, the motor increasingly comes in with help.

I was using this only this morning towing my huge trailer up my 1 in 8 hill after a rubbish disposal trip. Feeling a bit lazy, I just slowed my pedalling right down and the motor took over most of the work. I think I prefer this system, since the other demands you have to work harder in order to get more help, which seems a bit illogical.

 

[flecc]

Aron, you don't have to turn off the throttle for braking, the brake lever switch cuts the power.

On that tiring throttle Russ, there's an unexpected benefit from my mod. I've found if I push in the outer rubber slightly when on the road, it binds against the turning portion and holds it in place. A sort of poor man's cruise control.

 

[Jed]

That sounds a bit dangerous, i'd be forever chasing after my bike for forgetting to turn off e-bike mode!

As posted elsewhere, my twist grip no longer springs back, this does have the benefit of meaning I do not have to hold it in place thus saving my hands, and being able to ride nohanded. The onlt down-side is when emergency braking I have to remember to twist it off as well as put on the brakes (oh and turning on the key, I have to check the twist grip is off or I have switched to pedelectric or the bike will run away). So you may want to disable the spring to save your wrists!

 

[flecc]

To Russ: Oh, so it is the same system. The other way would have one advantage though, being able to pool both bike and rider effort to achieve the maximum possible output for hill climbing etc.

To Jed: I don't leave the rubber binding after, just while on a longer journey. I don't find the Torq too dangerous for kicking off accidentally in Ebike mode, it's the lower geared motor on the Quando that makes that really dangerous as A to B magazine reported. It kicks off so fast it wheelies into the vertical instantly. I really frightened a couple of people before I got used to that. It would be dead easy to get dumped on the tarmac.

 

[rsscott]

For those that like to put a decent amount of pedalling effort into their rides, I've changed my standard pedals to a set of Shimano SPD pedals that quite cleverly, have the SPD connection on one side and a normal pedal on the other!

It really does make a difference and should enable you to put maybe 1 or 2 mph on your cruising speed.

 

[oobs]

What is an SPD connection please?

 

[rsscott]

What is an SPD connection please?

It's a type of connection that basically allows you to wear compatible cycling shoes/boots that have a clip fitted to the bottom of the shoe. The clip attaches to the pedal which then allows you to pull the pedal up as well as push it down. You've just got to remember to unclip one before you stop!

This Shimano SPD (SPD is Shimano terminology - Shimano Pedaling Dynamics) has a normal platform pedal on one side so you don't have to use the clip.

 

[mithril]

I agree about the grips. Just passable with bare hands but as soon as you put gloves on they're quite uncomfortable over long periods.

Those would be wonderful improvements and entirely feasible. One small improvement I'd like is wider (and better) handlebar grips. I don't have particularly large hands but I still find the Torq's grips too small.

Tony

 

[flecc]

I also agree about the grips, and in my twistgrip mod instructions you'll see I made that wider by an inch:

http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/twistgrip.html

The right hand one doesn't seem so important as the twistgrip one, but I've even made that wider as a result of fitting a Cateye bar end mirror, since it's insert boss adds a bit.
.

 

[Jed]

How easy would it be to change the bar entirely as i'm also finding the grips a bit too small, especially the twistgrip ?

thanks
Jed

 

[flecc]

The bar shouldn't need to be changed entirely Jed, there's plenty of straight bar inboard of the fitments, so for most of them, it's just a matter of moving them further in to increase the end length for longer grip rubbers. The odd item that needs more attention is the twistgrip. To deal with this you need a grip rubber that will go over 30 mm (1.2") diameter rather than the standard 22 mm standard cycle bar, and a motor cycle dealer is more likely to have that if cycle dealers can't supply.

Once the rubber is off the twistgrip you'll see it's plastic tube underneath and you'll need to find an inch or so of tube the same diameter that you can add to the end before sliding on the new grip rubber, so that it will still turn freely on the bar. Try a plumbing store or DIY for that plastic tube, doesn't matter if it's a fraction too big as you could slit it until it compressed in to size, then bind it at that with PVC tape before fitting the rubber grip. The PVC tape could be overlapped onto the existing tube section to lock the two securely together.

 

[rsscott]

For those thinking about adding Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres to their Torq's I've been experimenting with different tyre pressures.

The Marathon Plus is rated to maximum 80 PSI which with the Torq's lack of suspension gives a rather bone-rattling ride!

I've found a good balance between speed and comfort is to inflate the tyres to around 65-70 PSI.

The Marathon's will never be a fast tyre though, their renowned for their puncture-resistant abilities than rolling-resistance!