scooters

[WheezyRider]

Not fake news Neale, it's the government geting in a twist again,

On the same day as your link, 30/6/20 they published this for the rental operators on the trial:

" 3.1 Vehicle design: current position

An e-scooter will continue to fall within the statutory definition of a motor vehicle. We will define the sub-category of an e-scooter as being a motor vehicle that:

• is fitted with an electric motor with a power limit of 500W
• has 2 wheels, 1 front and 1 rear, aligned along the direction of travel
• is designed to carry one person in a standing position with no provision for seating
• has a maximum weight of 55kg
• has a maximum design speed of 15.5mph

On this link.
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How come they can have a 500W limit? We all know that "rated power" is meaningless and these things will come with "rated power" of 500W, but an actual output more than double that.

55Kg...that's huge, the original UK 1983 ebike law specified a max of 40kg...

I can't see how they can say it's safe for scooters to travel at 15.5 mph, when they have tiny wheels and are far more likely to come to grief than an e-bike.

Can we argue that e-bikes should now have their power limit raised and speed limit raised to 20mph?

 

[Nealh]

I think pedelec power should be 350w as that is what most basic hub motors are rated at, though you can get 250w marked ones they will be inherently the same motor with a different sticker to keep different legislators happy.
The likes of the mid drive producers is one fudge as know one really knows there true output that they say they are 250w, original 40Nm motors on these bikes now claiming up to or more then 100Nm. That extra torque/power doesn't come from thin air.
Even at 250w we know up to 1000w output can be had but it is at the expense of battery range and the power that a battery can supply, with most only being mediocre batteries which won't last more then two years before decline is noticed.

Speed doesn't need changing if you want 20mph pedal for it as a push biker will.

 

[flecc]

How come they can have a 500W limit? We all know that "rated power" is meaningless and these things will come with "rated power" of 500W, but an actual output more than double that.

55Kg...that's huge, the original UK 1983 ebike law specified a max of 40kg...

I can't see how they can say it's safe for scooters to travel at 15.5 mph, when they have tiny wheels and are far more likely to come to grief than an e-bike.

Can we argue that e-bikes should now have their power limit raised and speed limit raised to 20mph?

This has nothing to do with rational decisions, it's politics.

With Brexit we've put ourselves in the position of needing a US trade deal, and the US farmers who their government want to help, want to flog us their sub standard foods. But the British public are making that too awkward to accept.

Meanwhile the US scooter firms have been pushing hard for us to accept their scooter hire companies, so our government sees that as a way to show we aren't being unco-operative. So they are willing to accept the US status quo for the trials regarding weights, speeds and powers.

But these are not the final position on scooter law. For that the government are holding a public consultation, and the more moderate proposals for that are in the link Nealh posted. The link Wheezy Rider quotes from is only for the trial numbers, hence the two conflicting versions published by the government on the same day.
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[PP100]

Don't know why they are surprised at the 15mph limit for scooters since that is the E bike limit and why they thought scooters would be limited to "near walking pace" , though the current requirement for a driving licence to use them in the trial is stupid and counter productive.

E-scooters' UK speed limit 'shocks' blindness charity

Experts issue warnings about lax rules ahead of e-scooters becoming legal this coming weekend.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Wicky]

Possibly the req to have a driving licence is to ensure the potential users have at some point read the Highway Code and have something to lose if they are caught doing anything daft.

I think they certainly could help lessen dependancy on cars etc for youngsters but how easy & safely they fit into the existing eco-system of existing vehicles and road systems seems dubious.

 

[flecc]

Don't know why they are surprised at the 15mph limit for scooters since that is the E bike limit and why they thought scooters would be limited to "near walking pace"

They didn't say that, they said they were hoping that they would be limited to near walking pace but to an absolute maximum of 12.5 mph". That's because the government had said that's the speed limit they'd prefer in any future law.

There is no law for scooters at present, this is just a trial and the 15.5 mph is just a legally acceptable figure for that trial to suit the companies involved.

though the current requirement for a driving licence to use them in the trial is stupid and counter productive.

But necessary rather than stupid. In law powered scooters are motor vehicles and therefore can only be ridden on roads with a driving licence.
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[flecc]

Possibly the req to have a driving licence is to ensure the potential users have at some point read the Highway Code and have something to lose if they are caught doing anything daft.

The requirement is simply that it's the law, see my post above.
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[RossG]

I've seen a few reports already of young people being "mugged" for their scooters, makes a change from Nike's I suppose.

 

[PP100]

They didn't say that, they said they were hoping that they would be limited to near walking pace but to an absolute maximum of 12.5 mph". That's because the government had said that's the speed limit they'd prefer in any future law.
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Who walks at 12ph/h apart from Olympic athletes? Normal walking pace is about 3/4 mph. Either you limit it to walking pace or you don't. "limiting " is the same as "absolute maximum" .Their expectation was contradictory.
I take the point about driving licences for the trial period (which is going to be a whole 12 months!) but that will not be useful if they want to expand in the future to non drivers.

 

[flecc]

Who walks at 12ph/h apart from Olympic athletes? Normal walking pace is about 3/4 mph. Either you limit it to walking pace or you don't. Their expectation was contradictory.

They know just as well as us that many riders will take to the pavements regardless of the law, so they were hoping for a more moderate speed limit. Many countries have intermediate speed limits for pavements, for example in Japanese cities where it's often compulsory for bikes to switch to the pavements in congested areas, there's an 8 mph speed limit then.

I take the point about driving licences for the trial period (which is going to be a whole 12 months!) but that will not be useful if they want to expand in the future to non drivers.

As I implied, this is only for the trial at present, so we need to be patient. After the consultation and the trial outcomes they could make new laws to suit. There is already a precedent for road use much faster than walking without a driving licence or displaying a number plate, mobility vehicles.

They are restricted to 4 mph on pavements, but faster ones when used on the roads are allowed 8 mph.

Similarly the government could make a law for road use of scooters allowing a higher speed, and the government we know favours 12.5 mph because that (20kph) is already what is allowed in some other European countries.
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[Wicky]

The requirement is simply that it's the law, see my post above.
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But mobility scooters don't require a licence to drive on the road (class 3) as well as pedelecs and Sinclair C5s so the need for a licence seems somewhat arbitrary.

 

[flecc]

But mobility scooters don't require a licence to drive on the road (class 3) as well as pedelecs and Sinclair C5s so the need for a licence seems somewhat arbitrary.

Three points:

This is trial which must comply with the law as it stands. Hence driving licences. We aren't going to pass a new law through both Houses just for a short trial.

Mobility vehicles are limited to 8 mph on the road, half the proposed 15.5 mph for the scooter trial.

Pedelecs are not motor vehicles, C5s are also motor assisted with pedals coming under our old pedelec law assist speed and are historic anyway.
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[soundwave]

 

[PP100]

Well I believe you can potentially be charged if drunk and trying to ride a push bike so that doesn't surprise me if you are considered a danger/risk to others or yourself .

 

[PP100]

E-scooters' UK speed limit 'shocks' blindness charity

Experts issue warnings about lax rules ahead of e-scooters becoming legal this coming weekend.

www.bbc.co.uk

Shocked? How could they not see that was coming, I ask you.....:

 

[flecc]

Well I believe you can potentially be charged if drunk and trying to ride a push bike so that doesn't surprise me if you are considered a danger/risk to others or yourself .

Here a motorised scooter is a motor vehicle in law, so a positive test would mean a lost driving licence for at least a year.

Could make the hire ones unpopular among the drinking classes.
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[Nealh]

In Merseyside a rider was seen riding unsafely thru the 2 miles of the Mersey tunnel and was spoken to buy the tunnel police but looks like he got away with bollocking.

In Brizzle on Sept 15th a rider was fine more then £300 and had 6 points put on his licence.

 

[PP100]

Thought this had already started in London but seems not. But waiting til "Next Spring", seems like the "horse" has bolted given the all too regular sight of these on London streets. If they can't crack down on the illegal scooters use now with relative low numbers , what are they going to do when they get semi legal for renters at least and further abused ?

Transport for London gives go-ahead for e-scooters on capital's streets

Trial to allow rented scooters on roads as part of green transport plan

www.theguardian.com

 

[Michael Price]

It is a rather bizarre situation that commercial companies can rent these out for a fee
but you can't buy one and ride it yourself

If they are safe then they are safe - it not then not

 

[sjpt]

It is a rather bizarre situation that commercial companies can rent these out for a fee
but you can't buy one and ride it yourself

If they are safe then they are safe - it not then not

I agree. I suppose the idea is that it is easier to police adherence to standards on rental scooters than privately owned ones, but that seem pretty thin.

Especially thinking of some rental vans I came across locally: effectively 'Do you want the one with the bald tyres or the one with the dodgy brakes?' Or a similar choice for bike rental in a (rare) hilly region of Bangladesh: 'Do you want the one with the brakes or the one with the saddle?'