Samsung - are we just paying for the name?

[Manc44]

It's too late now, I took the chance and ordered a LiitoKala 48V/25Ah shrink wrapped pack.

Going off reviews, it's going to be more like 21Ah in reality. It was about £216 with shipping and VAT included in that. That's £10.29 per Ah compared to £19.40 per Ah for the UK (eBay) pack.

It's not that I don't think the UK pack is worth it, it's actually cheap compared to other packs I have seen in the UK, but I just didn't have enough money at the end of the day and I'm impatient.

Once I had my heart set on a shrink wrapped 21700 pack, my choices became more limited, since everywhere seems to sell battery packs in those Hailong cases, that wastes space! The size of those 48v/25Ah is small in comparison. The only problem, as always, is the weight of the things.

Hailong 24Ah down tube style hard case with 91 x 18650:
36.7cm x 9cm x 12.7cm = 4.19 liters.

Shrink wrapped 25Ah with 65 x 21700 (inc. BMS):
29.5cm x 7.5cm x 11cm = 2.43 liters.

That is a huge difference in sizes.

The 18650 hard case version is 1.76 times bigger.

 

[richtea99]

Please update us on this thread in a month or so. It will be useful advice for others looking.
Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

eBike Batteries

ebikebatteries.co.uk

he can custom build any batt and size and you can pick the cells, he wont use crap ones and offer warranty.

a 25ah batt for £222 means crap cells and imo fake as decent cells are not cheap say £5 each for good ones

That fellow Louis who had the fire is his own worst enemy.

I think that fire was caused by his installation rather than the battery. If you look at the video, he shows an installation diagram and he has two large batteries paralleled up on the outputs. He does have them separated by a bridge rectifier, but if that rectifier failed short circuit, which it could do, then the battery outputs would be directly connected and any imbalance between their state of charge would cause a very large flow of current between them. I think it was that which caused the fire rather than a cheap battery. Some of the comments on the Yotube video also make the same point. He does not respond to these of course, because he is looking for clicks rather than facts.

 

[egroover]

That's a good recommendation because they are quite old now, and they are not that expensive. Did you use any special charging regime, such as only charging to 41v and not going below about 34v? What is your pattern of usage for the bikes the batteries drive? Daily commute or occasional recreational rides?

Thanks.

no special charging regime, can't be bothered with all that... used on and off, average a couple of times a week over last 3 years, less used now as have some larger capacity ones, but charged back up to full every time after use, and occasionally when on a long ride when I have taken a spare battery, completely flattened to the point of power off (31v?)... recently used one on a ride as a testing , full assist level 9 (bafang 250w mid drive bbs01), I got 30 miles out of it, my normal level 3/4 (approx 100 w) I reckon it'll still be good for 45 to 50 miles

 

[Deleted member 16246]

no special charging regime, can't be bothered with all that... used on and off, average a couple of times a week over last 3 years, less used now as have some larger capacity ones, but charged back up to full every time after use, and occasionally when on a long ride when I have taken a spare battery, completely flattened to the point of power off (31v?)... recently used one on a ride as a testing , full assist level 9 (bafang 250w mid drive bbs01), I got 30 miles out of it, my normal level 3/4 (approx 100 w) I reckon it'll still be good for 45 to 50 miles

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I missed it for a few days.

Interesting info on your test there. I have a Billy Milburn ebike conversion and his battery pack. The motor is the Bafang BBS01 - I think the newer version since it was built up in 2020. The battery pack is his E=Power, hard cased 36v, 13 Amp Hour type, I think with Samsung cells - 50 cells I suppose.

Using my 250 watt Bafang mid drive on level 2 of 5, I managed 65 miles in the Lake District before it started to cut off. Quite a lot of climbing involved in that, but also a lot of hard work from me. On a recent ride in the Tyne Valley, I did 45 miles at a variety of settings, but mostly level 2 of 5, but also 3of 5 and with some throttle on steep hills at full power. The ride involved a total of 3000 feet of climbing and the battery was nearly done in after that, but still allowed me to keep going at level 1 of 5 to finish the ride.

I find that riding at level 3 of 5, I get about 35 miles before getting down to 33.5 volts under load. Obviously, when the road levels out and power is not being drawn, the voltage rises again.

So far - about 450 miles ridden, I think the battery is OK and so is the motor. You really can't hear the motor in any circumstances on the road as road noise and wind are louder. It must be well greased up inside or I think I would hear more from it. My partner has a Bafang 250 watt hub motor and that is loud by comparison - especially under load.

 

[billym1967]

Hi all, just came across this thread while surfing the Internet for something. Just to say I'm eequalspower, in Durham. I sell a few packs on ebay but mainly by word of mouth. Been building for over 3 years. I don't buy China packs in and re liable them as UK. All my packs are made by me with cells from nkon. So please be assured eequalspower is legit. I also do conversions and build and sell ebikes, bafang. If a battery is cheap then there's a reason for that.

 

[soundwave]

you fixed any bosch batts?

 

[billym1967]

you fixed any bosch batts?

i tend not to, some off the older ones can be re-celled but most boosh stuff is made with such complicated BMS boards, that there a night mare. i build work horse batteries, plan simple good quality. made to power a motor. they dont need to be complicated. sorry canrt help

 

[soundwave]

bosch use can bus and it sends a signal every 200ms and they booby trap the bms as later ones wipe the data when power is cut to the bms and as for the new power tubes batts forget it as taking them apart destroys them as us ribbon flat cables and when broken its a bin job.

tbh you should become a trade dealer on this site as can then advertise the bikes you have for sale if you can get them posted for a good price and offer customer support via this site

 

[billym1967]

bosch use can bus and it sends a signal every 200ms and they booby trap the bms as later ones wipe the data when power is cut to the bms and as for the new power tubes batts forget it as taking them apart destroys them as us ribbon flat cables and when broken its a bin job.

tbh you should become a trade dealer on this site as can then advertise the bikes you have for sale if you can get them posted for a good price and offer customer support via this site

To be honest, I have enough work already gonna expand next year, but need a bigger unit and help been a member on here a while, but rarely find the time to call in and read posts. But always will try and help if anyone pms me, and yes spot on with boosh, there making it impossible to fix. I opened some recently to salvage cells. Was shock on the water damage I found. But I've open 100s of packs, and some are quite scary inside.

 

[Manc44]

Please update us on this thread in a month or so. It will be useful advice for others looking.
Cheers.

The battery is on it's 5th or 6th cycle by now. Done about 275 to 300 miles on it.

On my 60lb+ bike on PAS 2/5 I got 56 miles with some steep hills thrown in and 62 miles without those steep hills.

On PAS 3/5 I got 49 miles on the same bike, with the steep hills included.

I just swapped to a full carbon frame and fork, so the bike weighs about 3.5 KG less. I doubt it will have much effect on battery range, but it could squeeze another 5 miles out of it maybe. I'm no lightweight myself, at around 190lbs!

It takes about 11.5 hours to charge at 2A so I know it's about 23Ah (advertised as 25Ah). This includes it cutting off before 39V though, so I'd say the advertised 25Ah is probably about what it is.

When low on power, a steep hill will zap it and make the controller (or it's BMS) shut it off, but I could power it back on 30 mins later and ride probably 5-10 miles on the flat, but I don't, I charge it whenever it cuts off and more recently, long before that point, like when there's 25%+ left. I like the oomph of a freshly charged battery!

I made a thread when doing the first few cycles. Once I realised it gets about 45-55 miles I quit filling in the spreadsheets. Here: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/that-liitokala-battery-first-use-maybe-a-thread-to-keep-logging-range.41819/

 

[billym1967]

Hi, you carnt test the capacity of a battery pack that way with a 2a charger, to many factors don't give an accurate result. Couple of quick things are is your charger accurate. As in a 48v battery can fully charge to 54.4v. If yours is only hitting 54.1v then that .3v can drop capacity. Packs also don't balance 100% unlike a single cell. You need to check on a proper tester that gives you a read out. Also remember really on a 48v you need to test from 34v to 54.4v to get a real capacity.

 

[billym1967]

I say on your test your getting 22ah knowing how ebikes use power, and guessing you don't fully flat the pack, 22ah form a 25ah is a good result

 

[Nealh]

34v for 13s is wishful thinking even manufacturers don't usually give figures below 2.8v per cell for min capacity values.

 

[billym1967]

34v for 13s is wishful thinking even manufacturers don't usually give figures below 2.8v per cell for min capacity values.

Was half a sleep still when I wrote it, but my point was if you going to try and test a pack with a standard charger, you have to start from the cells being very low, so even at 2.8 that's 37v. Most peeps never go that low, so testing capacity with a standard charger in never that accurate.

 

[Nealh]

AT some stage bike batteries may end up using China made factory cells or the lesser mediocre branded cells as the premium cells become less attractive or availability becomes even scarcer then they are which is non existent at the mo.
For diy battery builders there are some pretty good China cells that are hard hitting and comparable in delivery to high speck branded ones.
BAK is a massive China brand with their own production lines.
BAK N18650CNP 2500mah 20a head to head with the Sam 25R it is a near equal esp down to 3.2v The initial sag doesn't belie it's staying power.


10 & 30a graphs.

 

[billym1967]

AT some stage bike batteries may end up using China made factory cells or the lesser mediocre branded cells as the premium cells become less attractive or availability becomes even scarcer then they are which is non existent at the mo.
For diy battery builders there are some pretty good China cells that are hard hitting and comparable in delivery to high speck branded ones.
BAK is a massive China brand with their own production lines.
BAK N18650CNP 2500mah 20a head to head with the Sam 25R it is a near equal esp down to 3.2v The initial sag doesn't belie it's staying power.
View attachment 44630

10 & 30a graphs.
View attachment 44631

been trying BAK for the last few month, due to the massive shortage and price increase on other cells, todate there looking ok. but time will tell.

 

[Nealh]

Another big China name is Lishen Battery there 21700 LR22170SD is a10a 4800mah cell could be a good one, there 4500 LR217OSF 13.5a cell was highly rated against the competition.

 

[Nealh]

Life cycle will be the telling point Biily, though they already win hands down on price.

 

[Nealh]

Another name to watch out for is Sinowatt, I have seen no comparisons yet but could be another pretty good China manufacturer. Again they have a 2500mah 20a cell.