Help! Samebike 20LVXD30 48v Charging Problem

wgt40w

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 19, 2021
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During the winter I am not using my e-bike much. However, I do keep an eye on the battery and have never let it even nearly fully discharge.
Currently my 48v battery is showing it is at 39.9 volts and I have decided to charge it back up.
I have checked my charger with a multi-meter and it is outputting exactly 50.0 volts.
My problem is that when I connect my charger, the charger indicator light only momentarily changes from default unconnected green to 'charging' red - then back to green - i.e. it is not charging the battery, even after being left on for 1 hour.
I have read elsewhere about batteries 'going to sleep'. Could this really have happened to me with a 48 volt battery when it has 39.9 volts in it??
If it has 'gone to sleep', how does one 'wake' a 48 volt battery???
 

Nealh

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Two things say you have a problem.

1. 39.9v is to low to leave a battery for any time, it indicates cells sitting at < 3.1v or at least one cell group is lower then the rest and the battery cell balance is out. The BMS in both cases won't switch to allow charging.

2. The charge output is not good, it needs to read 54.6v for a 48v battery.

Firstly the battery needs opening up and all cell voltage checked, for a BMS to switch they will all need to be at or above 3.2v each.
Secondly the charger is faulty or needs adjusting if it has a voltage pot.
 

Nealh

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Your battery hasn't gone to sleep but it has been left at a charge rate that is too low and has likely self discharged too low over the dormant months. Ideally it should have been left at a storage voltage of approx. 48 - 50v and checked once a month.
 

Andy-Mat

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There are 0 Volt Chargers, that can recover some batteries that have slipped below the minimum voltage, where the BMS stops a normal charger from charging.
That would appear to be the case with your battery.
I only know of one company that supplies one version, for 36 volt batteries, in Scandanavia, and they work just fine. I used one to recover my battery, when my bike was originally delivered.
The paperwork with the charger showed that the manufacturer (China) made them for many voltages....I may have a copy somewhere, if I find it, I will place the pdf here for you. Give me some time.
Regards
Andy
 

wgt40w

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 19, 2021
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Two things say you have a problem.

1. 39.9v is to low to leave a battery for any time, it indicates cells sitting at < 3.1v or at least one cell group is lower then the rest and the battery cell balance is out. The BMS in both cases won't switch to allow charging.

2. The charge output is not good, it needs to read 54.6v for a 48v battery.

Firstly the battery needs opening up and all cell voltage checked, for a BMS to switch they will all need to be at or above 3.2v each.
Secondly the charger is faulty or needs adjusting if it has a voltage pot.
Nealh - many thanks for your detailed reply. I do not argue with anything you say, but two aspects surprised me.
1) On my e-bikes 'digital dash display' the state of the battery charge is shown as 5 or 6 segments of a circle. The current 39.9 volts state is shown as two of the segments 'full'. I would never have previously imagined that at this state the battery was so discharged it will not charge up.
2) At one stage I suspected my charger might be at fault and bought another one. The output specifications of both say 54.6v, but my multimeter shows both outputting at 50volts dc.

Would you suggest I try taking one of them apart to see if there is a pot I can adjust to 54.6v - OR would you suggest I buy a 'better' charger (both mine Samebike chargers but slightly different models)

PS In the past I have emailed CTEK, the manufacturers of well-respected car battery conditioning chargers, and suggested they should bring out versions for e-bikes. No reply ever received.
 

Andy-Mat

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Nealh - many thanks for your detailed reply. I do not argue with anything you say, but two aspects surprised me.
1) On my e-bikes 'digital dash display' the state of the battery charge is shown as 5 or 6 segments of a circle. The current 39.9 volts state is shown as two of the segments 'full'. I would never have previously imagined that at this state the battery was so discharged it will not charge up.
2) At one stage I suspected my charger might be at fault and bought another one. The output specifications of both say 54.6v, but my multimeter shows both outputting at 50volts dc.

Would you suggest I try taking one of them apart to see if there is a pot I can adjust to 54.6v - OR would you suggest I buy a 'better' charger (both mine Samebike chargers but slightly different models)

PS In the past I have emailed CTEK, the manufacturers of well-respected car battery conditioning chargers, and suggested they should bring out versions for e-bikes. No reply ever received.
You need to check your multi meter against a known good one, don't simply assume its correct, as it could be misleading you.....
regards
Andy
 

Nealh

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The mulitmeter may need a new battery. One can test it with any other dc or ac supply to see if the voltage reads accordingly. For instance a kettle plug or similar should show up 240v.
If you use 18650 torch batteries, charge one and check the voltage.

It would be very coincidental that two chargers both put out 50v instead of 54.6v.
I periodically check my charger outputs just as a matter of course.
 
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Andy-Mat

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You may have intended to be helpful, but if you do want to really help, you do need to supply full and accurate data, or leave the subject alone.

Many examples of incorrect or missleading data in your post, that the OP will certainly need to know.
You also did not know the OPs electrical knowledge level, so suggesting testing on 240 VAC was possibly dangerous....even an accidentally struck arc on an e-bike battery, could result in serious burns and or a fire..
I myself use a known accurate meter (of mine, I have several) to compare with an unknown one, simply because it easy, accurate enough for e-bike work, and can be done very quickly.
Regular checkups are also needed, here in Germany, once a year is recommended.
But the correct way is to go a laboratory and to use very accurate voltage, resistance and possibly capacitance sources, to test with!
But who has one of those in his back pocket at all times of the day and night. Not me!
The mulitmeter may need a new battery.
Certainly a possible cause, but with most modern (but not all) digital meters, they show when a battery is low in some manner.
Note:- Older analogue meters only need a battery for measuring resitances.
One can test it with any other dc or ac supply to see if the voltage reads accordingly.
AC & DC are two quite different ranges, with very different (internal to the meter!) circuit and possibly firmare requirements. I have seen and tested meters that on AC were relatively accurate, but on DC were way off. Or the other way round.....There is a lot of cheap cr*p out there, some of which is good enough for government work, but not all!
Therefore don't confuse the two voltage types.
For instance a kettle plug or similar should show up 240v.
Maybe you meant socket, certainly no voltage should appear on a plug! Actually, unless you are so close to the generating station for your mains, and can almost hold conversations with the workers without leaving your house, the voltage measured, even on an accurate meter, is unlikely to be 240VAC! Normally less! The farther away you are from the generator or a substation, the greater the losses in the cables. And as in all things, age also also plays a role with cabling under the street....
Also, e-bikes are always DC (except for the charger of course!) , so though its nice to have a working and accurate AC range(s), it won't help the OP much in reality....
If you use 18650 torch batteries, charge one and check the voltage.
Quite a good idea, provided you also know the voltage the charger goes up to when charging, that was used, and that the battery is in a good condition, and was recently charged and not used again!
Assuming that, he should then measure close to 4.2 volts DC on such a battery.
But I have noticed that some single 18650 cell chargers, they only charge to around 4.0 volts or less (if I bought one, I world return it and request my money back!), which will result in a possibly large error being shown on the much higher level of voltage battery, percentage wise.
It would be very coincidental that two chargers both put out 50v instead of 54.6v.
I myself have never had anything to do with 48 volt e-bike Batteries, and I wonder if there are possibly two "styles" of 48 volt batteries, (just guessing) with the number of "cell banks" inside being different?
For example, 12 banks of cells with each bank at 4.2 volts gives 50.4 volts DC, which would imply that the chargers are working correctly.
But 13 banks gives 54.6 Volts! Either might possibly be sold as a nominal 48 volt Battery.....But I was unable to ascertain if both "styles" are used on e-bikes. Does anyone here know for 100% certain?
I periodically check my charger outputs just as a matter of course.
As we all should, once the accuracy of the meter has been fully checked out of course.

I assume that you meant well with your post, but your level of knowledge precludes you doing this in a safe and accurate manner. Some extra study of the subject would appear to be needed IMHO, and if you are sufficiently interested, Libraries are generally a good source of knowledge for most things..

regards
Andy
 

wgt40w

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 19, 2021
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Nealh & Andy-Mat
Thanks for your comments, but neither of you make any suggestions as to what I should/ could do.
I have checked my newest multimeter against mains voltage - here showing 249 volts.
My bike/ battery is only about 9 months old. It has spent far more thime discharging 'naturally' than through being ued powering the bike.
Having looked at a video elsewhere - it was suggested I should connect a charger with a higher output voltage (around 55 volts) - leaving it only connected for a few seconds until the charging light changes to red. Then disconnect and re-connect the 'proper' charger.
Unless you suggest anything else, this is what I propose to do.
If all else fails I suppose I will just have to buy a new battery (circa £200).
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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Nealh & Andy-Mat
Thanks for your comments, but neither of you make any suggestions as to what I should/ could do.
I have checked my newest multimeter against mains voltage - here showing 249 volts.
My bike/ battery is only about 9 months old. It has spent far more thime discharging 'naturally' than through being ued powering the bike.
Having looked at a video elsewhere - it was suggested I should connect a charger with a higher output voltage (around 55 volts) - leaving it only connected for a few seconds until the charging light changes to red. Then disconnect and re-connect the 'proper' charger.
Unless you suggest anything else, this is what I propose to do.
If all else fails I suppose I will just have to buy a new battery (circa £200).
You still need to check your multimeter against a known accurate one.
The AC side, other than the input to the charger, is unimportant for e-bikes, you just need accurate DEC readings.
As your chargers (2 of them!) put out just over 50 volts, as I mentioned in my last post, the chances are that is correct, as having 2 with the same "error" is to my mind MOST unlikely.
I suspect that you have 12 bank battery, but till someone looks inside and can count, that is not fixed in cement.
I recently sent you a document regarding 0 Volt Chargers, which is found and used, and assuming that your battery is only just below the low voltage level for your battery, should recover the battery. But such chargers are VERY thin on the ground. Other than the 36 volt one I mentioned, I have not seen one over here (Europe).
My impression is that you yourself are not well versed in electrics, which is a problem in itself. I thought that my previous posts should have helped you.....
Do you now at least understand HOW to maintain your battery(s) in a good working condition, or should I go over it again with you?
At this point in time, I see little chance of you being able to recover the battery, and probable damage to the cells is happening as we speak. That you trusted the voltmeter display on your bike is sad, but that may be a controller that is able to also work with lower voltage batteries, or was never designed/programmed for 48 volt nominal batteries.
Some here know of good workshops that can re-cell a battery, this is maybe a path you can take.
Many find to their cost (literally!) that e-bikes are not the simple thing they expected.....a great deal of quite intense technical knowledge is required if you want to do it all yourself. Or you need to plan more money for a good LBS to do the work for you.
Best wishes
Andy
 
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Andy-Mat

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Update:
Instead of taking apart one of my standard 48volt chargers, I have orderd one of these adjustable output voltage chargers.
Link to Adjustable Output Charger
I hate to be negative, but what do you think it will do for you? I seriously doubt that it will recover the battery, as i still believe that the BMS will reject charging still.
Let us hope that I am completely wrong, and you can get going soon!
I just found these links, which explains a lot, but mostly at the single cell level, which is not very useful:-

Do remember that many people with little or no battery training, badly misuse the term "Battery". Sometimes they mean cell......DUUHHH!
regards
Andy
 
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Nealh

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The battery bars are woefully useless to gauge voltage they are an estimate and can be 25% or more out. 39.9v divided by 13 cells is nearly 3.07v per cell, one expects a or some BMS may allow charging at that overall voltage but if one cell group is much lower then no charge will be allowed as a fault is detected so no switching takes place. The only way to know for sure is to open the battery and take 13 X xxx voltage readings to see where the issue lies.

A charger as long as the out put is above the battery voltage would charge, for instance a 36v charger would charge the battery to a max of 42v. The charge doesn't know the cell count but only outputs a max voltage.
 

wgt40w

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 19, 2021
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SOLVED PROBLEM
As mentioned in one of my Threads above, I received the new adjustable charger.
On first switching on the charger output was set at 50.8 volts. The charger has an external pot which I reset for an output voltage of 54 volts.
I connected this charger to my battery and switched on - immediately indication showed it was charging.
I immediately switched off the new 54volt charger.
Immediately I connected the standard OEM charger (50volt) and instantly it indicated over to red light, i.e. charging. Remember, previously it was not showing the Red charging condition.

Research now tells me that for the future I should not let the 48 volt battery get below (a safe) 45 volts before charging.

So, I have saved myself the unnecessary cost of a new battery (approx. £200), by only spending a delivered price of £50.74. Furthermore the new charger not only has an external adjustable voltage output, it can also be set to charge in 2 or 3 stages. I may well re-adjust the output voltage to 50.8 volts and use it as my default charger in 3 stage mode, which means it ends by trickle charging.
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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SOLVED PROBLEM
As mentioned in one of my Threads above, I received the new adjustable charger.
On first switching on the charger output was set at 50.8 volts. The charger has an external pot which I reset for an output voltage of 54 volts.
I connected this charger to my battery and switched on - immediately indication showed it was charging.
I immediately switched off the new 54volt charger.
Immediately I connected the standard OEM charger (50volt) and instantly it indicated over to red light, i.e. charging. Remember, previously it was not showing the Red charging condition.

Research now tells me that for the future I should not let the 48 volt battery get below (a safe) 45 volts before charging.

So, I have saved myself the unnecessary cost of a new battery (approx. £200), by only spending a delivered price of £50.74. Furthermore the new charger not only has an external adjustable voltage output, it can also be set to charge in 2 or 3 stages. I may well re-adjust the output voltage to 50.8 volts and use it as my default charger in 3 stage mode, which means it ends by trickle charging.
Cograts, well done. You saved yourself a buncle of cash.
But do not leave your battery on trickle charge, it will definitely shorten its life.
Simply charge to the capacity you require, or a full charge, and check the output volts every few weeks if not in use. It will last years then....
regards
Andy
 

Nealh

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My 48v battery I allow discharge to 42v and have no issue with it charging with a generic 48v charger.
 

squirrel22

Finding my (electric) wheels
Aug 26, 2022
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York
I’ve just had a Samebike 20LVXD30 delivered and like the bike but not the charging situation. It seems to only charge to 48.6v as checked on two multimeters. I’m unsure of course whether the problem is the charger or battery. I read the interesting discussion above and I’m curious how you measured the charger voltage?
 

Nealh

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Charger voltage is simple for two wire generic charger jack, simply plug charger in to the wall plug and switch on the socket. Use a meter to see the charge output jack gives a reading of 54.6v.
 

squirrel22

Finding my (electric) wheels
Aug 26, 2022
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Thanks. I didn’t get any voltage when I tried so I figured it had shut off with having no load. I’ll put my specs on and have another go in the morning :)