Rose Black Creek E6

[jdallan]

I'm currently lusting after this bike (www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/rose-black-creek-e6-trekking-men/aid:621670]ROSE Black Creek E6 Pedelec Men) as a belated 70th birthday present but it would appear that no test can be arranged in the UK. I'm thinking about arranging a visit to Rose in Bocholt for a trial however before doing so I thought I'd ask if anyone had any experience of the bike and/or the Bionx system, or dealing with Rose in general. The bike spec seems very good (as you would expect for the eye-watering price!)
Any views/comments welcome.

Jim

 

[Taff]

Just dealing with Rose now - very efficient. Ja!

 

[Jonah]

Jim,

What do you think of the similar looking (and specced?) Kalkhoff Pro-Connect. These have just arrived in the UK for test rides. Kalkhoff Proconnect X27 50cm

Of course as these are only just available here there are no reviews of these either - but they are more easily available for a test ride. I'm hoping to get a go sometime soon.

Alternatively, if you're looking for eye-watering budget bikes, I have ridden the Grace Easy which was very nice Grace Bikes by Wisper In the UK &ROI 2013

and the Reise & Muller bikes that I haven't tried yet that Wisper are now distributing in the UK. E-Bikes | riese und müller

I believe that all these bikes are available in the UK for test rides.

 

[jackhandy]

It'll be interesting to see if the xion drive, "made in Germany" uses the torque sensor in any different way to the Neos & Arriba; which, I'm told, merely use it as a switch.

Anyone care to hazard an opinion as to what the motor is in the back wheel, and it's likely output?

 

[RobF]

Jim,

I have a Rose ebike and am pleased with it - quality piece of kit, nice to ride and 100 per cent reliable.

The bike bits on mine are very similar to the one you are looking it, although I have the Bosch crank drive system and an Alfine 11-speed hub.

My bike was £2,500 which means you are paying a fair bit for the BionX drive.

Rose as a company are fine to deal with, dead straight in a Germanic sort of way.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi our new Baby kit Geard rear motor can now be programed for 500 watts 22 MPH

with 48 volt 10 AH battery £995 + a Bike We are going to stock fitted to the bike in the link below A new 29er by specialzed available in black red or white red Complete bike ready to ride £1696

Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc 29er Hardtail Mountain Bike 2013 | Leisure Lakes Bikes

Or Have the bike off your choice delivered to us £1195 complete fitted conversion


Frank

 

[jdallan]

Jim,

What do you think of the similar looking (and specced?) Kalkhoff Pro-Connect. These have just arrived in the UK for test rides. Kalkhoff Proconnect X27 50cm

Of course as these are only just available here there are no reviews of these either - but they are more easily available for a test ride. I'm hoping to get a go sometime soon.

Jonah - Thanks for pointing out the Kalkhoff; somehow I'd managed to miss this one - I think I've been associating the "ProConnect" name with the off-road only type bikes. It's now a strong contender and I'd certainly like a test ride. One of the reasons I was leaning towards the Rose E6 is the 48v battery, however I see that it produces 420Wh, while the Kalkhoff with its 36v battery produces 558Wh. I'm afraid I'm not well up on the technical side however this does sound like an advantage. (If anyone can explain it, or point me at an explanation, I'd be grateful.)

Alternatively, if you're looking for eye-watering budget bikes, I have ridden the Grace Easy which was very nice Grace Bikes by Wisper In the UK &ROI 2013

and the Reise & Muller bikes that I haven't tried yet that Wisper are now distributing in the UK. E-Bikes | riese und müller

I'm certainly not looking for eye-watering budget bikes; I'm not impressed by the cost factor. I'm simply looking for good quality, good performance and a good spec to suit my requirements which include derailleur gears and hub motor.

Many thanks for the info.

Jim

 

[jdallan]

Jim,

I have a Rose ebike and am pleased with it - quality piece of kit, nice to ride and 100 per cent reliable.

The bike bits on mine are very similar to the one you are looking it, although I have the Bosch crank drive system and an Alfine 11-speed hub.

My bike was £2,500 which means you are paying a fair bit for the BionX drive.

Rose as a company are fine to deal with, dead straight in a Germanic sort of way.

Rob,

Thanks for your reply. I was favouring the E6 as I prefer derailleur gears and a hub motor. Crank drive and hub gears are just not for me. I'm sure you are right about paying a fair bit for the BionX drive and I don't know whether or not it would be worth it. Jonah's info re the Kalkhoff Proconnect X27 has given me food for thought!

Thanks again.

 

[RobF]

Rob,

Thanks for your reply. I was favouring the E6 as I prefer derailleur gears and a hub motor. Crank drive and hub gears are just not for me. I'm sure you are right about paying a fair bit for the BionX drive and I don't know whether or not it would be worth it. Jonah's info re the Kalkhoff Proconnect X27 has given me food for thought!

Thanks again.

Sounds like the Kalkhoff is nearer to what you want, and 50 Cycles do demo rides.

It won't be quite as comfy as the Rose - the 29" wheels and near-balloon tyres really soak up the bumps.

Should be decent quality, although we've had a few ' my Kalkhoff's conked out' threads on here recently.

They sell a lot of bikes so perhaps we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from a handful of iffy ones.

 

[martin@onbike]

I'm very impressed with KTM bikes.....this is of a similar ilk to what you're perusing:

eStyle

£2300

 

[jdallan]

Sounds like the Kalkhoff is nearer to what you want, and 50 Cycles do demo rides.

It won't be quite as comfy as the Rose - the 29" wheels and near-balloon tyres really soak up the bumps.

Should be decent quality, although we've had a few ' my Kalkhoff's conked out' threads on here recently.

They sell a lot of bikes so perhaps we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from a handful of iffy ones.

Probably not, but it's worth remembering when reaching a decision. I still favour the Rose.

 

[jdallan]

I'm very impressed with KTM bikes.....this is of a similar ilk to what you're perusing:

eStyle

£2300

Another one to consider! Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Probably not, but it's worth remembering when reaching a decision. I still favour the Rose.

You should test a different bike with the same Bionx motor before you favour that Rose too much. It's a direct drive motor, and not everybody's cup of tea.

 

[jdallan]

You should test a different bike with the same Bionx motor before you favour that Rose too much. It's a direct drive motor, and not everybody's cup of tea.

Thanks d8veh - As I've said elsewhere, the technical side of things is not my forte! Could you explain, or point me towards a source of information on the difference between a direct drive motor and the other/s? Also, do other manufacturers make clear what type of drive their bikes incorporate?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

A direct drive motor turns all the time with the wheel. This has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that you can get regeneration when using the brakes or going down-hill. If you use the regen, it acts like a brake, so you don't go very fast downhill. The main disadvantage of a DD motor is that you get a slight resistance in the hub all the time you don't use power including when you go down-hill. It's not a lot, but some find it annoying. Some bikes with DD motors have the regen on allthe time, which makes them difficult to pedal over 15mph, even when going downhill. Geared motors have a clutch that allows the wheel to free-wheel properly. Crank-drive motors don't have any resistance in the wheels, so they free-wheel nicely, but you can sometimes get a little resistance to pedalling, which you wouldn't notice because the motor is normally on when you're pedalling. You'd only notice it when pedalling with the power switched off. It's hardly noticeable, so not much to worry about.

Manufacturers often tell you what type of motor they have, but they only describe the advantages,not the disadvantages. Each type has advantages and disadvantages, so it's a case of which type you personally like, which depends a lot on your riding style.

 

[jdallan]

A direct drive motor turns all the time with the wheel. This has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that you can get regeneration when using the brakes or going down-hill. If you use the regen, it acts like a brake, so you don't go very fast downhill. The main disadvantage of a DD motor is that you get a slight resistance in the hub all the time you don't use power including when you go down-hill. It's not a lot, but some find it annoying. Some bikes with DD motors have the regen on allthe time, which makes them difficult to pedal over 15mph, even when going downhill. Geared motors have a clutch that allows the wheel to free-wheel properly. Crank-drive motors don't have any resistance in the wheels, so they free-wheel nicely, but you can sometimes get a little resistance to pedalling, which you wouldn't notice because the motor is normally on when you're pedalling. You'd only notice it when pedalling with the power switched off. It's hardly noticeable, so not much to worry about.

Manufacturers often tell you what type of motor they have, but they only describe the advantages,not the disadvantages. Each type has advantages and disadvantages, so it's a case of which type you personally like, which depends a lot on your riding style.

That's most informative and very helpful - thank you. Although I started off trying to ride with the power switched off as much as possible, I've noticed that in the year I've been riding the ebike my use of power, mainly at the lowest setting, has become more the norm. This being the case, and as I'm not a downhill racer, I suspect I wouldn't find slight resistance in the hub a problem. Your advice about trying a bike with the Bionx system is a very good one and I'll have to see what can be arranged.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Jdallan,

I sell all three types of bike and ride them all every week. There are certainly distinctions between them but they are essentially electric bikes and work in very similar ways. Being lucky enough to use all three, I believe the type of use you intend making of them is all important.

On shorter journeys - up to about 15 miles (on the road), I would normally choose the Grace Easy, especially for the city. The BionX system is sophisticated, silent and powerful, I find it great at the lights for accelerating quickly with the traffic. However using the bike on full power for hill climbing does drain the power quite quickly especially if you are on the heavy side. This may be due to the 48A motor but you do have to be careful. There are four regen modes, four power modes and a cycle mode. As the bike weighs under 19KG and there is no noticeable drag in the cycle mode the bike can easily be ridden with no power, however I normally use it on setting 1 of 4 as this makes the bike practically weightless. The regen is useful for very steep hills as setting 4 really does take the heat out of the hill and effectively puts charge back into the battery. I use the regen carefully though, as I have discovered that it is better to keep the kinetic energy stored in the bike and rider, and use it for keeping momentum after a slight to medium decline. This is a far more efficient use of the stored power than recharging the bike. If you are super fit and are riding for exercise, the regen modes add resistance in the same way an exercise bike does in the gym. IMO, this style of bike is for the fitter electric bike enthusiast who likes a nimble ride.

The Bosch crank driven Grace MX is great for off road and trail riding, however it is most important that I keep my cadence high especially on steep hills or the bike will stall. The lowest gears are good for hill climbing and you do get a huge number of assistance settings, 12 in all and none of them regen. Range is good on crank drive bikes considering the battery size due to the efficiency of the motor driving through the gears. The motor is quite but it can be heard. I find the crank drive system asks for reasonable effort from the rider to get the optimum performance out of the bike.

For longer journeys, especially in the hills, I would choose the Wisper which has a less sophisticated geared hub drive. The range is far better than both of the above bikes but that is down to the 600Wh battery. I can choose exactly how much effort I want to expend at any time but simply twisting the throttle. Occasionally I do have a rest and go throttle only. The motor is not as quiet as either of the above bikes, you can hear it coming in especially under high load. The torque is higher than the others and I find hill climbing more comfortable. The bike and motor as a whole is not as sophisticated as the BionX or Bosch though that is reflected in the near £1500 price difference!

I think electric bikes, more than standard bikes, are a very personal choices. I strongly recommend trying a good selection, making sure you ride bikes with all three motor types before spending your hard earned cash!

All the best

David

 

[jdallan]

[QUOTE=Wisper Bikes;183439

A lot of useful information, David, thank you.

On shorter journeys - up to about 15 miles (on the road), I would normally choose the Grace Easy, especially for the city. The BionX system is sophisticated, silent and powerful, I find it great at the lights for accelerating quickly with the traffic. However using the bike on full power for hill climbing does drain the power quite quickly especially if you are on the heavy side. This may be due to the 48A motor but you do have to be careful. There are four regen modes, four power modes and a cycle mode. As the bike weighs under 19KG and there is no noticeable drag in the cycle mode the bike can easily be ridden with no power, however I normally use it on setting 1 of 4 as this makes the bike practically weightless. The regen is useful for very steep hills as setting 4 really does take the heat out of the hill and effectively puts charge back into the battery. I use the regen carefully though, as I have discovered that it is better to keep the kinetic energy stored in the bike and rider, and use it for keeping momentum after a slight to medium decline. This is a far more efficient use of the stored power than recharging the bike. If you are super fit and are riding for exercise, the regen modes add resistance in the same way an exercise bike does in the gym. IMO, this style of bike is for the fitter electric bike enthusiast who likes a nimble ride.

I ride for exercise and pleasure but am by no means super-fit! My normal ride is a maximum of around 20 miles at present, although I'm hoping to increase this as the summer (wishful thinking?) goes on. Mainly fairly level on a mix of backroads and tracks with a few short but steep hills. I like the spec of the Grace Easy, especially the belt drive, but have reservations about the three gear hub - a hark back the Sturmey-Archer days of long-forgotten youth perhaps?

The Bosch crank driven Grace MX is great for off road and trail riding, however it is most important that I keep my cadence high especially on steep hills or the bike will stall. The lowest gears are good for hill climbing and you do get a huge number of assistance settings, 12 in all and none of them regen. Range is good on crank drive bikes considering the battery size due to the efficiency of the motor driving through the gears. The motor is quite but it can be heard. I find the crank drive system asks for reasonable effort from the rider to get the optimum performance out of the bike.

I've tried a crank drive, hub geared bike and decided it wasn't for me.

For longer journeys, especially in the hills, I would choose the Wisper which has a less sophisticated geared hub drive. The range is far better than both of the above bikes but that is down to the 600Wh battery. I can choose exactly how much effort I want to expend at any time but simply twisting the throttle. Occasionally I do have a rest and go throttle only. The motor is not as quiet as either of the above bikes, you can hear it coming in especially under high load. The torque is higher than the others and I find hill climbing more comfortable. The bike and motor as a whole is not as sophisticated as the BionX or Bosch though that is reflected in the near £1500 price difference!

I'm considering Wisper, more for a replacement for my wife's bike, and mean to look into that soon. I could be tempted myself in view of the bike's spec.

There's not a lot of scope for trying out a range of bikes where I live (N/East Fife) without a good bit of travel, however I mean to sort something out.

Thanks again for the info and advice. (As you can see I haven't yet mastered the art of replying to quotes in this forum - apologies if it's a bit disjointed.)

Jim

 

[Wisper Bikes]

A lot of useful information, David, thank you.

I ride for exercise and pleasure but am by no means super-fit! My normal ride is a maximum of around 20 miles at present, although I'm hoping to increase this as the summer (wishful thinking?) goes on. Mainly fairly level on a mix of backroads and tracks with a few short but steep hills. I like the spec of the Grace Easy, especially the belt drive, but have reservations about the three gear hub - a hark back the Sturmey-Archer days of long-forgotten youth perhaps?

I've tried a crank drive, hub geared bike and decided it wasn't for me.

I'm considering Wisper, more for a replacement for my wife's bike, and mean to look into that soon. I could be tempted myself in view of the bike's spec.

There's not a lot of scope for trying out a range of bikes where I live (N/East Fife) without a good bit of travel, however I mean to sort something out.

Thanks again for the info and advice. (As you can see I haven't yet mastered the art of replying to quotes in this forum - apologies if it's a bit disjointed.)

Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for your response.

I too am certainly not "super fit". Although I should say, on 1st January I made new years resolutions to ride one of our bikes at least 10 miles a day and to change the way I eat. I have managed to shed about six stones since then. Simply by riding every day my fitness levels are getting back to what they were many years ago. With my newfound fitness, if money was no object and I did not need to travel more than twenty miles a day I would probably go for the Grace Easy. If I needed to go for longer without charging I would sacrifice some of the refinements of the Easy and go for the Wisper. The MX would be my choice if I were to want to cycle for fun only. The Wisper is certainly a better all rounder especially with the new hi torque motor.

I am yet to give the R and M bikes a thorough go, but we will have all the bikes here for the Bristol event and I look forward to being able to report on them.

I suppose it all very much depends on budget and as I said in my previous post what the bike is to be used for.

Happy hunting!

Best regards

David