Road sense

[keithhazel]

All I can say on the matter is:


When I'm a pedestrian I hate everybody, especially the fat chap sat next to me on the train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
simple....dont sit next to the fat chap.....NEXT..easy this being a doctor with people's problems..

 

[essexman]

DONT UNDERTAKE! Its suicide!

Seriously it looks easy, but count the hazards.

-Cars wont see you (and dont expect you)
-Trucks and buses CANT see you (50% of female cyclist deaths in london)
-Too close to unpredictable pavement denizens
-Too close to parked cars
-Riding on the worst bit of the road (glass, derbirs, potholes)
-Where do you go if a vehicie pulls in? You gonna bunny hop onto the pavement? What if theres a barrier?

If you undertake you put your life in someone elses hands! Why do that? Take control of the roadspace around you, if you need to get past a vehicle overtake.

If you dont know how to ride on the road:
-Get John Franklins Cyclecraft
-Consider some training

PS undertaking green paint cycle lanes are ok, in that cars and buses expect cyclist to be in them, BUT all the other hazards i mention above still hold true. Be very aware that the paint on the road does not grant you any special powers.

 

[flecc]

DONT UNDERTAKE! Its suicide!

Seriously it looks easy, but count the hazards.

There aren't any hazards apart from doors thrown open in the case Bob asked about though, going to the front of a stationary line at lights etc. When there's a paint merked cycle lane one has to do it anyway. It's overtaking which is both dangerous and wrong then.

Of course undertaking moving traffic is potentially very dangerous, but that's a very different case.
.

 

[burncycle]

Thanks all for your reply's.
Advise taken and digested.

 

[keithhazel]

Thanks all for your reply's.
Advise taken and digested.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
of course the best way to not have an accident on your bike is to park it in the front room and catch the bus...

 

[essexman]

Still beg to differ flecc, for three reasons:

-You dont know when the traffics about to start moving. If you get stuck in the inside your straight into all the hazards i've talked about.

-You cant always see what the front is like. You may get there, find the front vehicle is going left and your in its way. even If you know theres an ASL, you dont know a car isnt going to pull in front.

-Cycle lanes are optional you dont have to ride in them. The new version of the highway code will explicity state this. I'll use them where i see no hazards (ie not many of em)

 

[flecc]

-You dont know when the traffics about to start moving. If you get stuck in the inside your straight into all the hazards i've talked about.

It doesn't matter if they do start moving, either keep with their same pace or stop if nervous. Obviously I'm not advising undertaking at lunatic speed, courier fashion, so this just isn't a problem.

-You cant always see what the front is like. You may get there, find the front vehicle is going left and your in its way. even If you know theres an ASL, you dont know a car isnt going to pull in front.

Same applies, when I near the front and things are starting to move with one or more left turners, I just pause for them. I think London would seize up if everyone refused to pass on the left at all times.

Anyway, judge for yourself. I live in a London borough with all that entails, I've been cycling for 62 years and never been in contact with another motor vehicle while doing that, never accident damaged a bike, haven't a mark on me from any cycling accident, and do high cycling mileages, almost 3500 miles so far this year, more than many car drivers do.

So I think I must be getting it right.

The reason I reacted to your post saying "Don't" is that there are no absolutes in road safety. What is normally safe can be very unsafe and vice versa in differing circumstances. Ultimately careful judgment is what counts, so it's for each individual to decide what is safe for them. I accept that what you've said is safe for you, but my record shows that something very different and opposite is safe for me, without a helmet too.
.

 

[The Maestro]

I think that everyone has a different riding style and some people are more confident doing one thing or 'tother, it also depends on the town you live in, road layouts, traffic type and density - there is not hard and fast rule or 'safest way' that applies to all situations, there are just too many variables. The worst thing is the number of people who preach and say 'you must do it like this', there are a lot of self righteous motorists and cyclists.

I would like to comment on the term 'undertaking' though - some people will get on your case saying undertaking is illegal and against the highway code. I believe the correct term is 'filtering' which is a specific type of undertaking that is perfectly legal to pass stationary or slow moving traffic. Filtering is more dangerous than not filtering, the hazards are well documented on this thread but if you do it slowly and with good observation its pretty safe. Personally I'd rarely overtake a row of traffic unless the row was very long and the cars were up to the curb blocking that route. To avoid the cars turning left on you while 'undertaking' I'd either pause like Flecc suggested, or if the lights are on red I'd nip a couple of meters through the lights and therefore be infront of the cars so they can easily see me. Traffic lights are typically set several meters back from the actual traffic crossing the junction so in general this isn't a problem. Most cyclists where I live seem to adopt this strategy.

 

[oldosc]

The reason I reacted to your post saying "Don't" is that there are no absolutes in road safety. What is normally safe can be very unsafe and vice versa in differing circumstances. Ultimately careful judgment is what counts, so it's for each individual to decide what is safe for them. I accept that what you've said is safe for you, but my record shows that something very different and opposite is safe for me, without a helmet too.
I started a funny ! (I think so) reply, but realise, that this subject is a bit serious...Flecc is right (again) you must cycle to your strengths.. I also have covered a few miles on a bike.In traffic I have never had an accident (don't ask off road) As a cyclist you have phenominal acceleration from stop, use it to get out of trouble..rules are there for everybody; and everything is ok as long as they are followed by everbody, as we cyclists sadly know, some everybody's are more equal than others(you know what I mean)no one in a chelsea tractor, thinks a cyclist is his equal(unless he has a mop of blond hair, and is followed by a ministry car). You are not paranoid if everyone(sorry) is out to get you.

 

[oldosc]

sorry about that...the first bit was a quote from Flecc, but it didn't look like it

 

[essexman]

Im not criticising anyones riding style but the poster did say they were newish to road cycling. The point is the stats say accidents happen in that zone because the hazards are in that zone. So anecdotal stories of i've ridden like this for x years don't really hold weight against the stats. Of course good judgement and experience help, but the poster specifically said he was new to road traffic.

Read John Franklin.

Know that the most common accident is the left hook. A vehicle swings in and wipes out the cyclist (is it 50% of female cycle deaths in London?)

 

[HarryB]

I think London would seize up if everyone refused to pass on the left at all times.

.

I completely agree, I always filter to the front of a queue of traffic in London - there wouldn't be much point in cycling to work if I didn't. It is quite safe, just be aware of the vehicles with poor visibility (and those mean spirited folk who pull as near as possible to the curb to stop you getting through). There are plenty of dangers on the road, this is not one of them.

 

[BGElect]

In summary...

I guess then what we are all saying is:

Be observant of the potential hazards and ride within your own ability and pretty much the same goes for motorcycles and cars...

 

[The Maestro]

Im not criticising anyones riding style but the poster did say they were newish to road cycling. The point is the stats say accidents happen in that zone because the hazards are in that zone. So anecdotal stories of i've ridden like this for x years don't really hold weight against the stats. Of course good judgement and experience help, but the poster specifically said he was new to road traffic.

Read John Franklin.

Know that the most common accident is the left hook. A vehicle swings in and wipes out the cyclist (is it 50% of female cycle deaths in London?)

Read Mark Twain re. stats! I wouldn't believe any stat unless I'd studied all the data and how it was collected in depth. Most stats are completely wrong and I simply don't have time to do the research to get to the bottom of them so I just go from my experience which I think is the best way. Don't get me wrong, I think reading a good book on road cycling is a good idea and adds to a persons understanding, but I would simple ignore any stats and use common sense. Did you know inflation is only 3% by the way?

 

[oldosc]

Did you know inflation is only 3% by the way?

Ill get in before F*** this time

Is that tyres we are talking about

 

[flecc]

Read John Franklin.

Know that the most common accident is the left hook. A vehicle swings in and wipes out the cyclist (is it 50% of female cycle deaths in London?)

And why should John Franklin know any better? Writing a book is not a qualification, basically sound though that book may be, and I was riding decades before he was born and consider I don't need to read what he has to say.

I do know how vulnerable to left turning vehicles bicycles are, and raising the female accident rate in those circumstances raises more difficult issues of discussion, but how do drivers left turn when standing in a stationary nose to tail queue waiting for the lights and where there's nowhere to turn until they reach the lights? They don't, they can't, and so it's safe to ride past them on the left.

To reach the reserved cycle area at the front of the traffic, a cyclist has to use the cycle lane, and to say that is wrong seems almost eccentric.
.

 

[Larkspur]

I'm a new cyclist (if you discount the teenage years) but an experienced road user and feel that I am adapting to riding quite assertively on my 30 mile round trip to work each day (i've got the excellent Cyclecraft book, mentioned in previous posts but it doesn't seem to provide enough detailed information about "traffic jamming" ). Therefore, I would like to get advice reagrding one particular situation I'm confronted with on my way home every day.

Basically I have to ride up a narrow two lane road towards a traffic light controlled junction. The cars always tail-back for about quarter of a mile before the junction. The narrow road barely accomodates the two lines of cars on my side of the road, so there is literally no room to pass the cars except by riding down the outside, right out on the other side of the road. The on-coming traffic is moving quite fast, so you are literally travelling in about a metre and a half of space with no space on your left to 'escape' to in the event of an emergency and on-coming vehicles flying past to the right. Although I am confident about controlling the bike, I feel very exposed, but the only alternative is to queue, which would significantly affect my journey time and doesn't seem reasonable. What should I do? Frankly, as an experienced road user, I know it's unsafe because of the lack of any escape route to my left but somehow it seems that I should be able to pass the bloody cars somehow!

Chris

 

[HarryB]

I'm a new cyclist (if you discount the teenage years) but an experienced road user and feel that I am adapting to riding quite assertively on my 30 mile round trip to work each day (i've got the excellent Cyclecraft book, mentioned in previous posts but it doesn't seem to provide enough detailed information about "traffic jamming" ). Therefore, I would like to get advice reagrding one particular situation I'm confronted with on my way home every day.

Basically I have to ride up a narrow two lane road towards a traffic light controlled junction. The cars always tail-back for about quarter of a mile before the junction. The narrow road barely accomodates the two lines of cars on my side of the road, so there is literally no room to pass the cars except by riding down the outside, right out on the other side of the road. The on-coming traffic is moving quite fast, so you are literally travelling in about a metre and a half of space with no space on your left to 'escape' to in the event of an emergency and on-coming vehicles flying past to the right. Although I am confident about controlling the bike, I feel very exposed, but the only alternative is to queue, which would significantly affect my journey time and doesn't seem reasonable. What should I do? Frankly, as an experienced road user, I know it's unsafe because of the lack of any escape route to my left but somehow it seems that I should be able to pass the bloody cars somehow!



Chris

Even on a motorbike I would feel unsafe doing this and on a motorbike you have a bit more presence. So I would only overtake when there was no oncoming traffic and pull in (between cars as much as possible) when it wasn't clear. Do it in stages that way you are not riding towards oncoming vehicles. Not a perfect solution but slightly quicker than getting off your bike and walking it past the traffic.

 

[Footie]

The "joke" cycle lanes that we have here are rather strange; they actually end before the junction (a few feet back from the traffic stop point). This means the car still has the advantage, because when the lights go green the cyclist has to make up three feet before they draw level with the car. The car of course has already started to turn left by then - so it's a no win situation for the cyclist. I have seen several near misses and cyclists often fall onto the pavement trying to get out of the way of the cars cutting in as they turn left. I ignore the stop point of the cycle lane and pull up level with the cars bumper, that way I am highly visible and in the car drivers face (so to speak).
In this situation the car usually waits for me to move first
Who ever designed the cycle lanes here needs a real hard kick up the backside

PS: I don't go through red lights - I value my life

Think HarryB has the right idea - overtake when possible and safe, tuck in when danger looms. It sounds like your going to have to be very forceful in pushing your way between the cars.
.

 

[flecc]

Basically I have to ride up a narrow two lane road towards a traffic light controlled junction. The cars always tail-back for about quarter of a mile before the junction. The narrow road barely accomodates the two lines of cars on my side of the road, so there is literally no room to pass the cars except by riding down the outside, right out on the other side of the road. The on-coming traffic is moving quite fast, so you are literally travelling in about a metre and a half of space with no space on your left to 'escape' to in the event of an emergency and on-coming vehicles flying past to the right.

Chris

I agree with HarryB Chris, that's a potentially very dangerous situation, since a momentary lapse of concetration by a car driver could crush you. I have a similar road that isn't a problem on a bicycle since there's a detached cycle lane available, but on my motorbike I always followed HarryB's guidelines, filtering forward and sheltering in gaps between cars when something was oncoming.
.