Road Safety...arrghhh

[moon]

What is best?
To jump red lights and stay out of traffics way plus **** off car drivers?
or
Wait for the green light and get cut up by car drivers as well as being forced off your bike at times.

This morning I decided on the later and was nearly killed when a car nearly drove into me.

I also saw a fellow cyclist under the wheels of a TNT courier van near Blackfriars bridge at 10am this morning.

((

It was quite a shocking day...

I think car drivers should be banned from the road.

 

[Caph]

I wait in line with traffic at lights taking up the whole lane. I'm not annoying drivers by overtaking/undertaking them and I stay in control of the whole lane pulling back over to the left after I've got through the lights.

 

[flecc]

I do as Caph does when appropriate, but on the traffic lights I'm thoroughly familiar with, I take off at near the end of the red phase after the traffic in the cross direction has stopped and at the end of any pedestrian phase.

That extra second or two gives me a head start to get into a safe position before the grand prix start, enabling the car drivers to settle after jockeying for position before reaching me.
.

 

[Danny-K]

I wait in line with traffic at lights taking up the whole lane. I'm not annoying drivers by overtaking/undertaking them and I stay in control of the whole lane pulling back over to the left after I've got through the lights.

Yep! Claim your entitlement; park up in the centre of your lane - you are a road-going traffic vehicle. If you park up snug into the left side there's danger you could be crushed to death by (myopic) drivers turning left after the lights turn green - straight over you. However a once secret government report, (now in the public domain), appears to support the first suggestion offered by Moon and add to Flecc's suggestion of taking advantage of local knowledge, when it concluded that due to their closer adherence to traffic-light laws, female riders in London were being killed in greater numbers than ever. (86% of all female cyclists deaths in London were as a result of being crushed to death by lorries)
- Lorry drivers, your favourite feral species Mandy!

Those (100% male), cyclists who ignored red lights and rode through - unbelievably had a lower fatality rate - although that's something I abhor in it's entirety.

And a quote from the CTC:
"Adam Coffman, an official at the Cyclists’ Touring Club, said: “Women cyclists tend to ride more slowly and are less comfortable doing things that feel risky.
So, instead of positioning themselves out wide in the road where they can more easily see and be seen, they are more inclined to hug the kerb, a way of cycling that may feel safer but is in fact more risky.”

Anyway, judge for yourself, here's a link to the 'secret' report -

Women cyclists ‘risk death’ by obeying traffic lights - Times Online

 

[moon]

Thanks for that Danny K

edited to add that, I think that cyclists need their own light signal in order to give them some some distance from other road users.


seeing the cyclist under the van today is still upsetting me..
cycling really shouldn't be this dangerous...

 

[moon]

this makes interesting reading
RoSPA : Road Safety : Advice : Cycling : Cycling Accidents - Facts and Figures

'Around 70% of the cyclists killed on the road have major head injuries and over half of cyclists injured have head injuries.'

 

[frank9755]

Without wishing to be confrontational, I have to say I find articles like that of little or no value. I believe it is much more useful to put cycling accidents in context; how frequently they occur, how risky cycling is compared to other things that people do and, indeed, how risky not cycling is compared to cycling.

A few facts that I have come across recently which I did find thought provoking:

• The rate of cycling accidents is coming down.
  
• For adult cyclists, the most frequent cause of accidents is when a motorist makes a left turn without seeing a cyclist, who may be overtaking on the inside or riding too far into the gutter.
  
• Cyclists are many (I forget the multiple) times more likely to live longer than die younger as a result of cycling.
  
• More lives would potentially be saved if helmets were made compulsory for car drivers and passengers, and pedestrians than for cyclists.

Nothing in life is without risk but we mustn't be overwhelmed by the risks or we wouldn't do anything - which is the most dangerous result of all!

 

[peckerman]

What is best?
To jump red lights and stay out of traffics way plus **** off car drivers?
or
Wait for the green light and get cut up by car drivers as well as being forced off your bike at times.

This morning I decided on the later and was nearly killed when a car nearly drove into me.

I also saw a fellow cyclist under the wheels of a TNT courier van near Blackfriars bridge at 10am this morning.

((

It was quite a shocking day...


Well I personally just jump the reds, as I am far too good to get hit by a mere car. I also have bat-like senses that enable me to see 360 degrees of traffic in real time. This coupled with my one hundred years riding experience and 3 billion miles without so much as a dog-poop on my tire means that I am right, and you should all listen to me and do exactly as I do.

 

[JohnInStockie]

I always try to go to the front and hog the lane until I cross the lights, but dont run the lights, I find that generally you get more time and respect from the cars if you do this IMHO. Anyone who runs reds is taking their life in their hands, breaking the law, and giving a bad name to us all (how can you argue over a car not following the highway code if you dont!)

I recall also reading somewhere that most fatalities on the road were deemed to be the cyclists fault, i.e. they were not following the highway code.

Live longer, take over the lane, but dont risk your life.

John

 

[frank9755]

I always try to go to the front and hog the lane until I cross the lights, but dont run the lights, I find that generally you get more time and respect from the cars if you do this IMHO. Anyone who runs reds is taking their life in their hands, breaking the law, and giving a bad name to us all (how can you argue over a car not following the highway code if you dont!)

I recall also reading somewhere that most fatalities on the road were deemed to be the cyclists fault, i.e. they were not following the highway code.

Live longer, take over the lane, but dont risk your life.

John

I agree with much of that, John; it is always comforting to occupy the moral high ground. However, you jumping a red light does not give a car an excuse for knocking you off through dangerous or careless driving, if fact it doesn't lessen the offence that they have committed (in the same way that you are not less guilty for jumping a red light becuase they have been speeding).

I would describe you as occupying your lane, not hogging it!

Information that I read recently, and I can't remember where, is that in accidents involving motorists and cyclists, the cyclist was found to be at fault in about one third of cases and the motorist twice as often.

 

[SEATALTEA]

Interesting article.

More Cyclists on the Road Mean Fewer Accidents | Hypermiling, Fuel Economy, and EcoModding News - EcoModder.com

 

[essexman]

In this day and age when we are much less active its dangerous not to cycle.

PS I dont jump, occupy the middle of the lane and dont feel threatened at lights.

 

[john]

Taking control

I sometimes go through on red, but only when turning left or straight on where there is no left turn.

I go to the front of the queue and position myself in the middle of the lane, waiting for green. Not had any problem with this so far.

With my commute now more urban, and having read Cyclecraft (new edition), I now occupy the middle of the lane (primary position) all of the time unless the lane is very wide or I think it is OK to allow vehicles to overtake, e.g. no oncoming traffic (secondary position). That way I am in control of when cars pass and it feels much safer. It does help that I can travel quite fast, 20-25 mph.

 

[Footie]

Caph
…. I wait in line with traffic at lights taking up the whole lane ….

In most cases I try to avoid stopping altogether – slowing well in advance and sneaking up to the lights. My short legs mean if I stop I have to dismount or fall over.

Flecc
…. on the traffic lights I'm thoroughly familiar with, I take off at near the end of the red phase after the traffic in the cross direction has stopped and at the end of any pedestrian phase ….

Pre-judging the lights works (for me sometimes) especially, when the driver is on holiday, as I can gauge the lights better. Not so good with the locals as they tend to move quicker and pre-empt the lights as well

Moon
…. cycling really shouldn't be this dangerous ….

If that worries you don’t try West Country roads. Roads here were most likely built along ancient cart ways and probably modernised in designed (at some point in the ancient past) to take 1950’s size cars and lorries. If you cycle here you must be prepared to have oversized cars, 4x4’s, lorries, tractors and buses pass within inches (not feet) of you at 30 mph to 70 mph - as a norm. Some even brush you – but you get used to it after a while.

PS: I can no longer watch the traffic behind me in my mirror while I’m cycling, it stress me up too much – if they pass me they missed me
.

 

[flecc]

If that worries you don’t try West Country roads. Roads here were most likely built along ancient cart ways and probably modernised in designed (at some point in the ancient past) to take 1950’s size cars and lorries. If you cycle here you must be prepared to have oversized cars, 4x4’s, lorries, tractors and buses pass within inches (not feet) of you at 30 mph to 70 mph - as a norm. Some even brush you – but you get used to it after a while.

And not just the West Country, many of the Surrey lanes I use are exactly the same, sometimes with the odd point where I have to stop and lean into the hedge to get something past. Similarly, 60 mph seems to be the target speed of many motorists.

Even slightly wider lanes are often very narrowed by the tarmac edges being broken away by heavy vehicles and eroded into huge treacherous potholes.
.

 

[Phil the drill]

And not just the West Country, many of the Surrey lanes I use are exactly the same, sometimes with the odd point where I have to stop and lean into the hedge to get something past. Similarly, 60 mph seems to be the target speed of many motorists.

Even slightly wider lanes are often very narrowed by the tarmac edges being broken away by heavy vehicles and eroded into huge treacherous potholes.
.

I'll second that! Roads very badly broken and holed at the edges, especially when single lane roads, enclosed with high stone hedges (that you can't see over) are a nightmare. I came home from work today on my conventional bike (I've got the Wisper in bits @ present, doing a few customisations on it) a horrendous trip with 4 seperate heart stopping moments - one involving a large white van flying around a blind bend in the 'road' towards me with his wheel in the hedge on my side of the lane.......Another involved my daughter's school bus deciding to overtake me the second he caught up with me and around a blind bend. Naturally something was coming the other way, and a sharp and painful dive into the nearby hedge was the only way out. I'll be having words with him tomorrow.......(I would have tried to stop him by occupying the middle of the road, but that means they would have followed me up a steep 2 mile hill at 7mph all the way and I wouldn't trust him not to get so frustrated that he just ran me over anyway!!!!! - its the way most of our locals behave (if nobody's looking do what you like, you'll probably get away with it!).
Sorry I'm still fuming, but I'll get over it, until it happens again tomorrow @ least.
Why do we put ourselves through it? Sometimes I can't help but wonder!

Cheers, Phil

 

[flecc]

That's even worse than mine Phil. At least with living hedges I can bury myself into the foliage at the cost of a few scratches, but with stone walls you really are stumped.
.

 

[solobirch]

Hello All,

I am 6,2 high, have yellow bike (Alien Linx, folding), always wear yellow jacket, helmet, yellow rucksack with additional lights and my lights are on everytime (front and back plus pedals) and sometimes feel like I am INVISIBLE anyway.

Regarding red lights - local knowledge is good but you have to be careful anyway. Also a lot of lights works in a way that there is a green light for pedestarians from all directions - these are easy to go on the red because you know that traffic is not moving.

Drivers turning left - well, it happens excaclty the same like drivers pulling out from side roads (this happen to my when I was on the motorcycle and that is why I am using electric bike now) - you have to be very careful. Occupying your own lane works well everytime - I haven't had a situation yet when the driver become impatient.

However major thing is to plan your road correctly. I cycle 9 miles each way everyday. I have found a really nice road - side roads - and I am on the main road for only 2 miles. The rest are small and quiet local roads. It takes me the same amount of time to get to work - no traffic, no stopping, no stressing. Take a map or look at Google Earth where can you go and your daily comute will become much easier and you will enjoy it instead of worrying about your safety.

Take care.

 

[moon]

I've just been out on my bike for the first time in a week as i've been too scared to ride
(BTW yesterday a male cyclist was killed by a lorry near the scene of the other accident, apparently he swerved to avoid a nasty bit of road surface and was sucked under a passing lorry)

I tried to maintain a more central position in the road but found that some drivers overtook me then cut sharply in front, which was a bit scary too. I must admit that I've lost a bit of confidence on the roads and was a bit jumpy about any vehicle passing close to me.

 

[john]

I tried to maintain a more central position in the road but found that some drivers overtook me then cut sharply in front, which was a bit scary too. I must admit that I've lost a bit of confidence on the roads and was a bit jumpy about any vehicle passing close to me.

One thing you could try is to keep an eye on the overtaking vehicle in the mirror and move left a little just as it passes, avoiding a close encounter even if it does cut in.