Revos vs Woosh system

[adila]

Hi, newbie here. I'm looking to convert a bike I just bought for my wife into an ebike and would love help deciding between two systems I've narrowed it down to.

This bike is this step-through https://www.deporvillage.net/bike-urbana-coluer-sixties-707-green

It's going to be used maybe once or twice per week, for social riding, around semi-rural areas where we live, a few hills but not much. My wife is not in to speed, she'll be in to something steady and easy to ride. She's unlikely to be doing more than 1 or 2 hours in any go, and clocking up maybe 80-100 miles per month.

I found this Revos system. It seems easy to install, quite light, enough power, it's not over-engineered, doesn't need lots of wires and sensors, and doesn't spoil the look of the bike with a heavy mid-motor - https://revolutionworks.com/ - its about £500

And I was also looking at this rear-drive Woosh system - https://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/product/uid-121-xf08c-13ah/xf08c-rear-hub-kit-with-13ah-battery - which is a similar price, but completely different setup. It seems more involved to setup and use and would mean changing to a different wheel, but is it better in the long term?

I suppose the most important factors will be - a natural feel / easy to ride, reliability, aesthetics and installation.

I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have!

 

[sjpt]

The Revos should do the job. It will give significantly increased tyre wear; but maybe not enough really to matter for that usage. The Woosh will almost certainly give a better ride, especially if she gets a little more adventurous.

I'm not sure about Revos support. Also, their parts may not be that standard which could give issues in a few years time.

You will get excellent support from Woosh. They use pretty standard parts so if there are any issues a few years down the road servicing and replacement if necessary should be straightforward.

Another factor may be availability; I know Woosh are very low on stock at the moment, not sure about Revos.

 

[vfr400]

Lets talk about the Revos first. In the 10 years I've been on this forum we've never had anyone do a proper review of a friction drive system, though they've been around all that time. They're very good in some circumstances, like when you have a nice light bike that you're happy to ride around without assistance, but just occasionally, you want a bit of help to get up a hill or something like that. What they're not suitable for is people that want to rely on the motor to power them wherever they go.

It doesn't matter what electrical system you have, the efficiencies are not wildly different, so the distance over which you can go for your rides depends mainly on the capacity of the battery. Very roughly, you use about 10Wh per mile, so their 100Wh battery will take you 10 miles.

The motor itself is an RC motor that has tiny bearings. I can see them not lasting at all compared with a proper ebike motor, which is one of the reasons that I say that this system should only be for occasional use and not as full-time assistance. Also, the coating on the roller won't last very long, so you have to think about how you'll replace it.

Finally, the battery seems to have a controller in the base. Other bikes I've seen seem to use very similar parts, and when their owners had problems, spare parts weren't available, so you'd be completely dependent on Revos.

One problem people have when deciding on ebikes is that they're doing it from a point of reference of riding a non-assisted bike. All electric bikes are good and will put a smile on your face. Some have their own quirks, but after riding literally hundreds of different ones, I can say that there's not one that I wouldn't want if it were the only choice. That's in the context of normal riding around, like shopping, touring and commuting.

In summary, you need to think about and explain to us what sort of usage you expect from your motor. How heavy is the rider? What sort of hills on your rides? How fit is the rider? How far do you want to go?

If Revos read this and think that they're system makes a good all-round solution, they can send me one to test. If it works for my general purpose riding and lasts out a year, I'll sing its praises on this forum forever after, but if it fails, you'll get the full analysis of why. No amount of money or coercion will cause me to deviate from telling the truth. It would be great to get a true evaluation of one of these things instead of theorising what it can and can't do.

Hub-motor systems are very reliable and very durable. They're generally heavier than the Revos, though there are some very lightweight solutions that are cheaper than the Revos and I'm pretty sure that they'd outlast it.

One final point, it looks like that bike doesn't have bottle fixing screws, so you'd have to drill the frame and install your own rivnuts.

 

[adila]

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reply.

It looks like Revos system is good for occasional riding, which is what it will be. I will definitely look into the support you get and the issues around replacement parts are a good one for me to flag with them. A good spot about the bottle fixing screws, I was planning to mount the battery on the rear pannier.

Maybe I just feel less confident installing the woosh system and feel more can go wrong with the various sensors.

 

[Nealh]

The REVOS works quite well I have one on my fair weather lightweight gravel/tourer with drops.
Very easy and an unfussy fit, only two wire connectors on mine, one for controller to motor and one for rear led cassette sensor that lets one switch the drive off with half back peddle.
The original I have is the older (Revos 1) unsensored model, the new ones (R3) are sensored now I believe.
The range is nothing new about 25 miles with on/off pedalling for the 208wh battery, the kit is very minimalist no display to damage, throttle or brake sensor or pas sensor. On my bike I use a simple £7 wireless computer.
One has to remove or cut any mudguard fitted so that the unit can run on the tyre.
System is easy to ride above the cut off which is set bang on 25km/h, the upper speed is only dependant of the rider strength.

I had a WTB Riddler TL very small block treaded gravel tyre and it ate the centre tread to smooth within 400 miles, removed tyre and used it on my town bike. I replaced it with a Specalised 2bliss Pathfinder pro which is a treaded tyre with a raised smooth 10mm hard centre for road/ faster surfaces and a grippy side tread for off road, no wear on this tyre has been noticed.

Kit is ideal for local riding/commuting of 10 - 20 miles, is lightweight and requires no wheel building or wheel replacement. Battery holder has the controller in the base, fixings line up easily with bottle fixings courtesy of three elongated slotted holes. My 208wh battery sits vertical on the seat tube. Full wet conditions are rideable with no tyre or drive slip up to about 10% incline. Range can be/is indefinite if one only uses the drive for inclines,160km is the most I do in a day ride.
Motor roller coating doesn't look replaceable and by the looks of it isn't, so far only done about 520 miles with it wear seems good.

 

[adila]

Thanks @Nealh.

By the way, what is the wireless computer for?

 

[vfr400]

The REVOS works quite well I have one on my fair weather lightweight gravel/tourer with drops.
Very easy and an unfussy fit, only two wire connectors on mine, one for controller to motor and one for rear led cassette sensor that lets one switch the drive off with half back peddle.
The original I have is the older (Revos 1) unsensored model, the new ones (R3) are sensored now I believe.
The range is nothing new about 25 miles with on/off pedalling for the 208wh battery, the kit is very minimalist no display to damage, throttle or brake sensor or pas sensor. On my bike I use a simple £7 wireless computer.
One has to remove or cut any mudguard fitted so that the unit can run on the tyre.
System is easy to ride above the cut off which is set bang on 25km/h, the upper speed is only dependant of the rider strength.

I had a WTB Riddler TL very small block treaded gravel tyre and it ate the centre tread to smooth within 400 miles, removed tyre and used it on my town bike. I replaced it with a Specalised 2bliss Pathfinder pro which is a treaded tyre with a raised smooth 10mm hard centre for road/ faster surfaces and a grippy side tread for off road, no wear on this tyre has been noticed.

Kit is ideal for local riding/commuting of 10 - 20 miles, is lightweight and requires no wheel building or wheel replacement. Battery holder has the controller in the base, fixings line up easily with bottle fixings courtesy of three elongated slotted holes. My 208wh battery sits vertical on the seat tube. Full wet conditions are rideable with no tyre or drive slip up to about 10% incline. Range can be/is indefinite if one only uses the drive for inclines,160km is the most I do in a day ride.
Motor roller coating doesn't look replaceable and by the looks of it isn't, so far only done about 520 miles with it wear seems good.

You kept that quiet, Neal. How powerful is it and how is the noise?

 

[FJC71]

£595 for a 209wh 24v cadence system seems quite pricey. This seems to be one for a reasonably fit cyclist looking for a bit of assistance on hills only. As such its a bit niche I, would think not that suitable for those who need assistance all the time. I would have thought as the range would be fairly limited for an unfit person, could be less than 10 miles. Perfect for a road bike I would think, if the tyres are up to it.

 

[Nealh]

I have a few times documented/mentioned in threads I have this kit but have never bothered to much with posting any dedicated thread as they get totally slated, sometimes having an open mind never seems to occur when different systems are used. As we know there have been various ones over the years and all tend to be quite dear due to inhouse trying to improve them and re inventing them. The main diy well know to some, being the Kepler example from Aus with a large thread on ES. Though he admittedly said his kit/design was solely for warm dry climates and not wet/damp ones.

When I conversed with the designer as a start up on Kickstarter I asked quite few Q's and after watching the various video's in action , I decided to to back the project with an order, < £400 for the 208wh kit was affordable for a lightweight no fuss option to try.
The cells used originally are Panny PF 2900mah cells 3p 7s, controller max current is 14a so I was told. Also was told that the system is programmed to only deliver a max 250w under any load and not the 400w one could expect.
There are no PAS levels, the system delivers good power under all circumstance's up to the hard set 15.5/25km/h cut off after that it can be peddled a lot faster.
Even unpowered the drive is in tyre contact, though it frees wheels well with weight there is resistance from tyre contact. Freewheeling with tyre off the ground is only 3 or 4 complete rotations.
208wh bottle battery is 2.75lbs, total kit I weighed was about 2.6kg.

Noise is more then the BPM I have but once going one forgets about it and it appears to be less once going with tyre/road contact and the other sounds about.

 

[Nealh]

My Revos uses a crank stay cadence type sensor, the led (green) picks up a rotation signal from the largest cassette sprocket (no magnets used). It measures the gap/speed of the teeth, I had teething issues with my one as the sensor kept slipping on the inside of the rear stay so drive was interrupted.
The new one has been redesigned a little following feed back after use.
For my one I have used heli tape on the inner stay and then used some epoxy and more velcro ties to keep it in the required position.
The old adage of tyre wear still runs true, any knobbly will have the centre line shredded so it is best to have a treaded tyre with a smooth center ridge or a dedicate smooth soft compound for road grip.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks @Nealh.

By the way, what is the wireless computer for?

Simply gives me ride details, time, odometer, spd avg & max, accent etc etc and quite good for £7.
It replaced a Cateye model (I lost the head unit on a bump) that was over 3x more dearer, the cheap one is easier to use and a bit simpler in use.

Waterproof MTB Cycle Bike Speedometer Wireless Bicycle Meter Computer Odometer | eBay

Ideal assistant for bicycle training. CLK: clock (12H/24H). Wireless transmission. DST: trip distance. Setting speed scale (KM/H. SPD: current speed. MXS: maximum speed. AVS: average speed. ).

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Nealh]

£595 for a 209wh 24v cadence system seems quite pricey. This seems to be one for a reasonably fit cyclist looking for a bit of assistance on hills only. As such its a bit niche I, would think not that suitable for those who need assistance all the time. I would have thought as the range would be fairly limited for an unfit person, could be less than 10 miles. Perfect for a road bike I would think, if the tyres are up to it.

These are marketed as local simple solutions to convert any bike with a 50mm plus gap between rear tyre and frame. the lightness will always have a range issue but 25miles for the 208wh is good for local use or a commute of <10/12mile distance.
Any one can ride the system and a fit cyclist type isn't where it is market at, it provides good low down power enough to give most riders a nice push in the back. For level terrain or descents a simply half back pedal cuts the power and one is cycling under his/her own steam. on flat terrain and with good cadence 18/19mph is not out of the range of most users who have no respiratory issues and a fit rider will easily get above. The effortless ride to 15.5mph is quick and one can be up to 17mph with out much more input and then after that you start getting more of a workout.
The only one fault I can find is that the drive when not in use isn't clear of the tyre.
Kepler on his diy kit had a lever/ mechanism like a suspension lock out where actuation moved the bldc motor clear of the tyre by use of a return spring in his supplied base unit.

 

[Woosh]

Any one can ride the system and a fit cyclist type isn't where it is market at, it provides good low down power enough to give most riders a nice push in the back.

adil wanted me to compare the XF08C with the Revos kit.
I suggested he posts his question here.
The kit will go onto his wife's bike:

 

[Nealh]

In all systems there are pros and cons.

Pros for Revos.
Lighter weight, easy to fit, no real tech or advanced skills needed (no wheel building or filing of drop outs).
Only two cables to connect.
Very basic no buttons or display to break or fiddle with.
Good power boost to 25km/h, no settings to change.
Simple speed control to cut off speed and not an aggressive speed control system.
Can be used in the rain no slippage.
No switches, simple back half pedal to engage or disengage drive power.
No PAS disc/sensor so no need to remove cranks (though believe later kit version has the option).
Like a hub drive one keeps all of the gears and no need to change or adjust them for fitting.
Probably a no brainer for a fixed gear bike.

Cons.
Expensive to buy, old units (R1)are noisy, new R3 is said to be quieter.
Can't retract from tyre during use, there is an adjuster screw.
Longevity/wear of drive components.
Replacement unit cost ?
Range but as said this is for short range commuting or local use.
Tyre wear (may have to choose tyre carefully).
For fiddlers no advanced features to over ride.
No throttle.

Quite simply this is about the easiest plug and play kit on the market for someone with very little ability, all it needs is the two Allen keys and velcro/cable tie kit supplied to fit. No other tools needed,

 

[Nealh]

The Woosh kits in comparison are a different kettle of fish.
One has more control on power, hub motor reliability is well documented from lots of users. Most issues are often non hub ones.
Batteries are larger so more range and capacity.
Sensored kits are quite in use.

 

[Woosh]

Realistically, can he fit the Revos to his wife's bike?
There may not be enough space above the rear brakes and how is he going to secure the cut rear mudguard?

 

[Nealh]

Realistically, can he fit the Revos to his wife's bike?
There may not be enough space above the rear brakes and how is he going to secure the cut rear mudguard?

Yes.
The bike pic in the link looks ideal, though the mudguard will need cutting.

Pics below show the drive mounted behind seat post, the rear stay sensor and two of the bike. One when used locally to work & back and the second for a days riding out.